Watts and position critique
Folks,
I'm a bigger dude. (looking to get smaller). But with my size (6'2, 200lbs) comes power. I did Halfmax a week ago and rode that course at 271 watts. I rode a 2:25. All in all, I was very happy with that split. It was a PR for me and I still ran reasonably well despite a little blow-up at the end. Miles 10-13 sucked.
Anyway, using this race, and other races as a guide...plus the biking calculator and guidance from a couple friends I trust...I've come to the conclusion that my position is not very aero. And that I should be faster with no extra effort.
Earlier in the year I was doing calm flat Oly courses at 295 watts and finishing my rides near 23mph. I did Racine 70.3 which was calm and flat in 22.7mph (248 watts). After Racine I got a new fit which helped a lot of back/shoulder pain and did speed my up as Halfmax was flat but VERY windy...I averaged 23.1mph on 271watts.
My question is this...Are there folks here that can look at pic's of position and help a brother out? I know almost zero about bike fit.
I had a couple buddies come over and they looked at my fit and basically said it was not a TT type fit. I was back on the saddle and essentially very comfortable. But I was not in a fast position. I'd like to change that and realize I'll have to sacrifice some comfort. They were nice enough to help out a bit and we lowered me down and moved my seat forward to give me some more drop.
Anyway, that's it. There are not many (if any) folks around Milwaukee that specialize in TT fits. So I am not real sure what to do.
I know I can post pics on Slowtwitch, and I still might. But there is a lot of baggage that comes with that too. 
Comments
Hi Eric, welcome to the Haus! First, I'd ask what your FTP is since you are posting numbers but we have no reference for them so we will not know if you riding wisely or not. You may find plenty here to help critique your position, but I think if it is a concern to you, you should get a proper fit. I'm sure if you research, you should be able to find a reputable shop (I had to drive 4+ hours for mine). It is a wise investment and one that I wish I made before I bought a lot of other things that weren't half as important. That being said, you won't have to sacrifice comfort if you get a proper fit, after a couple of weeks of riding in your new position you should be comfortable and powerful. Seriously consider that, and be careful posting on ST as there are many knowledgeable people there, but most of the posts will be of little benefit to you. If you know its wrong to begin with, just get it fixed by a professional, they take into a lot more consideration on your fit than just how it looks. Get your fit, get your power numbers, and EN will take care of the rest! Good luck man.
Eric,
I'd suggest talking to Todd Kenyon at TTBikeFit. What most of us have found with his fit analysis is you become more aero and as comfortable, if not more, in the new position. The only problem I've had is that a lower head position doesn't allow you to look up the road as far as I would like...
Good luck.
Bill
Sorry, forgot about FTP....duh
Currently sitting at 305. Although I think it was a little higher since I did 271 for a half and still ran fairly well for me. I did a poor job pacing that ride and wasn't able to run much the month prior. Tough to say with so many factors and the cancelled swim. I had a case of the stupids for the first 30 minutes of that ride. (295 watts)
I have been fit to the bike properly. But my buddies, who do know a thing or two, simply looked at the fit and said it wasn't aero. I think I had maybe 2-3cm of drop. They both know the guy that fit me and the comments were the same...he'll make you comfortable and fit you to the bike properly...it just won't be aero.
I'm not saying it is "wrong"...just not fast. According to the bike calculators 295 watts on a flat oly course that is not terribly technical should have me breaking a 1hr TT. In fact, I should be near 55 minutes. Granted that is with zero elevation and zero wind which isn't totally true...but the point is the same. I'm almost 10 minutes slower in a 40k than what my power should have me going at. The only reason is an un-aero fit.
Is it as simple as dropping my bars down and shifting my seat forward a bit? I don't know.
Any recommendations on a really good fitter with aero in mind near Milwaukee Wisconsin?
Eric,
Post some pictures and we'll give you some advice.
Also see our Bike Fit ebook in the cycling section of the Wiki
Read through the e-book and then go to the TTbikefit webiste. Todd has posted a bunch of videos for you to look at and get an idea of whats involved with a good fit. A bunch of us have used Todd's online service to get our bikes fit, but even if you don't, you'll have a ton of questions and a much better understanding of bike fit when you bring it in to a local person.
As has been said, let's see the set up. And lets see it race day ready. Also, what tires and tubes are you rolling with? Is your kit tight? What pm do you use?
Regardless, it will be fun.
What you're seeing in these pictures is AFTER my two buddies looked at the bike, looked at me, had me get on the bike and say..."no wonder". They reversed the stem and dropped my down probably 8cm. No joke...I think I had like 3cm previously.
So all these are after that...
They are of me on the Computrainer. My race gear is tight, nothing flopping. Front wheel is a Stinger 60, rear is a Stinger 90 with a disc cover.
So hard to say...
But here is a before and after my fit with Todd at TT bike fit. You can see in the "after" that my skeleton is now supporting my weight, rather than relying on my muscles. My head is much more neutral, and all the stress is off my neck. My arm angle is much better. I do think your neck looks stressed, and too "tipped up," as I was in the before postion. Looks like that could get very sore? Does it? After my fit with Todd, I now know how much of a difference it makes, and that lower does not mean uncomfortable. I can ride all day long in aero now, and get off feeling fine. Hope this helps give you a little comparison.
P
I used the Slowtwitch and EN bike fit books/pics/articules when I was working on my TT/tri bike frame. I used a Look Ergostem and seat on my road bike set up on the Computrainer. I have a big mirror mounted on a side wall as well as a smaller one for a front view. I moved my position around untill I had the "position" and "angles" shown and discussed in EN and ST. I also rode that position on the CT and then outside quite a bit to know it would work. Then I built a frame with proper triathlon geometry and the fit I worked up. Must be a little ok, I was still on the aero bars at mile 111.5. You might see if you can get some adjustible parts for your bike and work out a position for yourself. Or go to a fitter...
FWIW, I think you could be more stretched out. You look pretty scrunched up. It looks like you have less than a 90 deg angle in the bend of your upper arms at the shoulder. Look at Linda's position and notice she is more stretched out, not so hunched up. Look at her upper arm angle compared to your's. Check you the EN and ST articules and pictures and see how you compare to those.
Kurt
FWIW, I'm planning to do the video bike fit with Todd for my Christmas gift to myself. Lots of folks have used TT Bikefit, and everyone seems pretty pleased with the outcome. Mention you're on the team, and I think you get a small discount.
@ ;Bill--I'm looking right at them. Not showing up with anyone else? Here they are again. If it's a dupe for some, sorry about that. But let me know if these show up...
Here is a picture of my bike fit. I've tweaked it since to get a little lower on the bike and I've added longer bars. Looking at your picture I think there is still some aero to be had.
I will say this, my fit 2 days ago was vastly different and like I said, probably 7cm higher. Before that was even worse...I probably had no drop at all.
When I took these pics I was sitting pretty far forward on the seat, thinking I needed to. I had forgotten that we moved the seat forward for the sake of comfort.
So I don't need to be up on the seat any more which would un-scrunch me a bit.
I'm also thinking about new aero bars. I don't like the J bend mine have as I like a water bottle up between the aero bars. But a new set of bars might be more low profile.
Either I get a new stem or aero bars for additional drop. There aren't any more spacers in there.
Having said that I think I need to go to a fitter as I don't know how to resolve the neck thing on my own...So Todd might be my christmas present to myself too.
I would add too that I think the most important part of the fit is the seat height. As you are moving your aero bars down and pushing your seat forward, it should probably also be lowered a bit so that you're knee angle remains the same. Back and neck may hurt for a while as you adjust to the lower position. You may want to spend some time indoors and on the trainer working the neck muscles before you go outside. I have no spacers left and have adapted pretty quickly, but it was tough to start.
http://cronometro.com/biodynamic-fit/
Hi,
Just to give you some reference on your numbers, I am 6 ft, 210 and did the halfmax as well. I think my fit is OK, although I could get a little drop.
I did 2:40 at halfmax, with avg power of 251 and NP of 260. My avg. speed was 20.5. VI was 1.04.
So, I would say your numbers look pretty good.
Hello Eric,
Two pictures you selected for EN wind tunnel are not the most telling. Few things can be picked up from it. No, it is not going to be ST like account, but you could have picked brighter color walls to sit against for a better contrast and visibility.
I am not a fitter, nor expert, but have studied the fit pretty extensively.
I can tell two things from your pictures. Your hip angle is still very open and it does give room for going lower. But, keep in mind, in order to go lower, you have to go forward as well, to preserve the hip angle. I don't think you would suffer much by closing the angle a bit, but not much. Keep in mind that E7 is a tall/narrow bike and as best as I can tell, I do not see spacers below your stem, am I wrong? Just cannot see well. Need to check the position of the saddle on the rails. It will need to go forward as you are dropping lower. If you are in motion in this picture, it appears that you are not a nose rider either. If you ran out of saddle rail, moving your sitting position toward the nose will help you preserve the hip angle, ie. increases the seat tube angle. Also E7 has a relatively slack seat tube angle to begin with.
Your options to get lower are to use a negative rise stem or lower stack aerobars, much like vision set up.
Second picture only partially reveals your elbow position. The book advice on elbow position for triathletes is as narrow as required for the thighs to ride in the shadow of elbows. Not required more as aero starts bumping against your breathing ability. For short TTs ok, but not for tri. Some do take elbows closer than that and are still able to ride.
Your reach appears good and torso appears supported. I cannot tell your saddle height from the picture and that is a critical metric. Keep in mind that the fit begins from cleats to saddle height to cockpit length and drop in that order.
Also work on making your head more neutral/lower.
Getting lower will reveal some comfort issues early on. More strain on neck and shoulder muscles as well as more pressure coming at the saddle. If you get properly fitted, it becomes a matter of conditioning yourself in a new position. The body will complain, but stick with it. You can expect an initial drop in power until body adjusts, than look for numbers to bounce back. It requires patience.
Lastly, pick a local fitter and head over to the shop for an expert fit. Possibly look for ST Institute certified fitter.
I used to ride on E9 with a little drop, started to evolve my position and ran out of options with a tall/narrow frame. Now on Argon18 long/low frame with 15.5cm drop. Trek E9 could not allow for that in my case.
For reference, I'm 5'9" and run 13cm of drop. You can go much lower if you can get comfortable. It'll take a few weeks of getting used to, but I'd say there's some crazy free speed to be had, still.