Mike - here's my angle, to add a simpleton's perspective.
I tried self coaching for many years and with adequate MOP results. Nothing wrong with that. However, in my second time around with EN, I've committed my self to allowing R&P's work with these plans to slowly simmer in over the season to come. Last year, I added to much Chris Addendums to the plans, like the VO2 phases cuz they felt like they weren't enough, and I went thru what you describe, tho later in the season. Not gonna do it my way this year, gonna be patient and trust the plans that I pay good $ for. As we started this VO2 phase, I was tempted by my old ways and even hit Patrick up for advice, and was reminded of just what you mentioned.
Look at like this. Part of the attraction of EN is to get faster and stronger results by working efficiently, to get the most out of as little time as possible. I think for most of us AG'ers, we lose sight of this. If I can believe that the OS works even on just 7-9 hrs a week, then I can believe that these VO2 sessions are still working even if I perceive each workout as 'not as tough' as the FTP work.
Thanks for the reminder.
Now, applesauce mixed with amino acids, 2 cups of joe, and off to the cave for the Saturday bike.....
Hey MIke I'm gonna say thanks for sharing that piece of wisdom...at precisely the right time I think....I have been in the "Haus" for a year...but I started with an IM training plan...not in the OS...so this is my first full OS...and you really hit it...this first week I was feeling like I needed/wanted to do more...the VO2 intervals are hard..but they feel "refreshing" compared to threshold (for me any way)...its is easy to see how you goud do exactly as you say...and dig yourself a deep hole...these are hard work...and take a toll on your body...but you are dangling on an edge and if you over do it could take the fall............its important to remember the advice from RnP ...there is no benefit to overdoing the bike intervals...THANKS FOR THE REMINDER...it means alot when it comes from a peer v the coach.
wu 2.0, then 2x 14' (4') at .96 and .97 These were tough cuz 8wks of FTP work had gotten old and the previous week's VO2 work was a fresh change. I'm sure that it's very important to keep FTP work involved like this.
then 6x 60''on & 60'' off, these were tougher than the earlier wko with VO2 since it was coming on the heels of the FTP intervals.
then 2x 5' (2') of Hi Force Lo Cadence Climb work. I'm working this in during the VO2 phase to help get ready for the mtn rides coming up in the spring.
I decided to get back on track and do Sat. WKO today insteading of flipping Sat/Sun since I just did VO2 bike last night. It was tough but I got through it.... I found the Z3 to be the most challenging.
Solid brick. It was a very tough-looking workout on paper, but somehow it all came together. Grazing all day on muffins and carb-laden crap in the office yesterday, combined with a massive dinner I ate last night at a party at my boss' house might have contributed to the good energy level.
Overall 75' @ 232 watts, IF 0.949. Short warmup of 10' easy then:
I took 1 minute out of the aerobars at the 14' mark of the first interval and 3x 1 minutes out of the bars spread out over the second 18', but overall I was feeling pretty strong and able to output good power.
As if 2x18' of z4 wasn't enough, it was straight into 8' of z5 time, structured as 4x2'(2'):
AP: 313, 307, 303, 301
HR avg: 166, 167, 169, 169
HR max: 176, 177, 180, 179
Cadence avg: 92, 95, 93, 94
The declining power over the intervals is indicative of hurting pretty badly at the end. For the last 2 intervals I spent the first minute in the aerobars and the second minute sitting up…it was the only way to keep up power. The cadence differences are due to experimenting with different gears.
Finally to finish it off there was a quick 5'@ z3:
The brick run, like Thursday's effort, was very strong. The run was almost a carbon copy of Thursday in terms of negative split pacing, although the second half was faster today. Indeed after the first half mile pretty much the whole run was a z4 effort (z3=7:07 and z4=6:58), and with a nice low HR that never really got above the low 170's. The paces were obviously helped by a few reasonably long traffic stops, but no question I was feeling good and cruising in a good rhythm. My right hamstring was again a bit tight but seemed a little less of a problem today. Interestingly I started to get a big quad cramp coming on at the very end of the run, but luckily it was almost the end of the run so I didn't have to fight through it at all.
so Mike, I'm a slow learner... are you advising to do all the run intervals at the IP pace. It does feel rather easy, but sounds like that's supposed to be that way.
@ Mike G - Thanks for the sage advice on the VO2 intervals.
@ Kim, Chris, Matt and Scott - Nice work today.
I did the bike WO. WU:EZ 15' with 5 spin ups. Then 2 x 14' (4') @ 268W (97% IF) with HR 155-160. Then 6 x 1' (1') @ 328w (119%IF) with HR 166-168. Those VO2 intervals were really hard after the FTP intervals. I had to take the 1' rest down to 100W to make sure I could hit the work intervals. Then did 1 x 10' @ 228W (83%IF) with HR 150-153. Wow!! Legs really feelin it.
My heel was feeling fine so I took it for a test run. Did 1/4 mile @ 10:00 pace and began to feel slight pain. Backed off to a walk for 3 minutes, then started up again. Ran 3/4 mile before the pain slowly came back, so I stopped completely. So in total I ran 1 stinking mile @ 10:00 pace. I've iced the heel 3 times today. Conclusion: still need to rest and let it heal, so I've decide to take at least another full week off from running. On the bright side, my HR on the run was only 120 bpm after a mile, so all the cycling and swimming I'm doing in place of running seems to be keeping me in some sembalance of run condition too.
Good luck with the run tomorrow. Wish I could join you.
Bruce - I can't tell you how many times I've extended the staying injured vs healing process by doing those 'test it out' runs. It's such a guess as to when we should do that 'test'. No way to tell. No one to tell us when. After a few years of dealing with calf or hammy stuff, my experience tells me that I need about 2 extra weeks past the day that I think I can run. If the injury is far in advance of my 'A' race, then the patience isn't too hard to practice. IMWI is still a long way from today.
Wow Great ride yesterday...patiently waited for the rain to clear and was rewarded with a nice afternoon to ride...took the roadie bike out and did 36 miles in 1:52 just over 19mph avg. which included the scheduled workout of 2x18min. Z4 & 8min. of Z5 "on-time" done as 1min:1min...remainder Z3 .....followed that up with 3.5mile/26min.run...(which realized I wasn't supposed to do..so will skip Sundays brick).....I am tired this morning...but think I will get outside again today and do my planned 8min. of Intervals as hill sprints? maybe....see how I feel once I'm out on the road.
Enrique- just like in the Bike intervals...not alot of benefit in over shooting the prescribed pacing...I like to do mine at the prescribed pace but to finish up the final few at slightly faster...or as when you have say 400 & 200 to do...do the 200 at a reasonably faster pace than the 400...
@ Chris - thanks for sharing your experience. I'm just going to not run for as long as it takes to get better. It acutally feels fine this am so I don't think the "test" run made it any worse. Anyway, I swam 2500 yards this morning. Overall, felt pretty good and finished with 10 x 50 yard sprints. Was able to hold the times @ 50-52" per 50 yds with stroke count of 39-40 per lap. Still not as fast as many ENers but I'm getting better.
Great work all and awesome advise from both Mike and Chris.
Bruce I feel the injury pain and would second Chris's advise. Yesterday I did a full 1/2 mile run @ 11:00 pace. Just slowly working the knee back into shape. Felt a little stiff after the run but not too bad.
Followed the run up with a solid 2 hr on the bike. Temps were in the low 80's so it was a beautiful day out with a fairly strong wind from the south. Hit the OS W/U for 22" then
MS1: 2x14' (4') as 1.03 and 1.00
MS2 6x60"/60" as 1.19, 1.17, 1.21, 1.19, 1.23, 1.22
MS3 2x15' (2') as 0.83 and 0.85
Then JRH total of 35 miles, TSS 151.9
Following WKO had smoothie and iced the knee. Then off to coach my daughters soccer team in league championship game. They won in double sudden death overtime 1-0 less than 2 min before the shootout and my little girl score the goal. Then off to a pizza party. And yes I did have a little pizza OK it was a lot but only a little cake. Last night the knee was stiff and sore but feels great today.
Dewey - I dig those proud papa moments. You keep up the hard and consistent work. Cuz, for the most part, the kiddo's will pick up on that.
Sunday Run:
20' with the mtn bike out on some local paths to get to the HS track, with shoes n such in sling. Lots of fun to warmup that way. cut the run a touch short cuz its so dang WINDY today, about 38deg with a 30mph wind made it a chore. but hit the goals for the work, descending splits 7:50, 7:40, 7:30 with 800 ez jog in between then another fun 20' cooldown using the 29er on the paths back to the house.
I'm gonna do this a little more often! But, it will be even better when the weather cooperates some.
y'all have a great Sunday, enjoy the rest day tomorrow.
I wasn't really feeling it in anticipation of the run this afternoon – probably due to a large-breakfast and then "tasters" from Whole Foods sitting in my stomach. But it turned out to be a blistering pace today, starting with a fast "warmup" right out of the gates. Running with my buddy Andrew always seems to be worth an extra 10 sec per mile.
Overall 8.92 mi in 1:00:01 (6:44 pace). A few stops for tunnels, waiting for Andrew, etc. Current z4=6:58, z3=7:07, z2=7:24.
@ Matt - running with a buddy is a great way to keep 'pressing' and resisting the urge to back off at all. Very beneficial. My running bro just had ACL reconstruction, hurt it 4 weeks after he signed up for his first IM, had surgery in midJanuary, and will have to pull off a perfect plan with no room for error heading into IMFL in November.
Wrapped up first week of VO2/Bike Hack with a decent ride outside...it was colder today than yesterday...and windier!...Steady ride included 16min. of 30:30 Z5 intervals...half with the wind & half against...wind was brutal! Total of 25mile in 1:21 (18.5mph avg.)...Avg. HR was 151 (solid Z3)..and avg. cadence of 90....because I bricked yesterday by mistake I did not run today...definitely looking forward to a hard rest day tommorrow.
Enrique, not meant individually, just more thematically. We're all smart people who can make our own decisions. I just feel it's important to remember that these plans, as written, work, without needing to resort to extra work.
Got a good bike in yesterday. Starting to use my weekends to build up a bit more durability in anticipation of the GCG race, so I did a 2.5 hour Spinervals Z3 workout. All in total of 110 minutes of Z3 time, definitely some good work!
Today was a 9 mile fartlek (since I hate doing structured intervals on hilly runs, and there's nothing but hills around me). Felt good, but these legs are looking forward to some time off tomorrow!
Run was rough today. Did it out in the "real world" vs. 'mill and was much harder, plus I was on day 5 in a row of training and legs had had it. Managed to hit paces for first two 1/2 mi intervals, but the last 1/2 mile and 1 mile Z4s were not at pace. I gave myself the slack to "just finish" and thanked my legs for a great week. I figure I did 95% of what the plan had written so trying not to get caught up in doing every last step exactly if various body parts protest.
Travel tomorrow and Tues. but hopefull will be back to train Tues. night....
Sun run on Sat and Sat bike on Sunday ... those 6 min of VO2 work after the FTP on the bike were certainly a challenge. Off to Asia tonight ... running kit and TRX in the bag. Not likely I'll be cycling til next Sunday. Oh well ...
Yeah, maybe going a little bit faster on the paces isn't such a great idea. I had some tenderness in my right Achilles this morning so decided to do an easy 6 mile recovery run rather than the intervals. I think my Achilles is thanking me now. Week 10 starts mañana!
Comments
I tried self coaching for many years and with adequate MOP results. Nothing wrong with that. However, in my second time around with EN, I've committed my self to allowing R&P's work with these plans to slowly simmer in over the season to come. Last year, I added to much Chris Addendums to the plans, like the VO2 phases cuz they felt like they weren't enough, and I went thru what you describe, tho later in the season. Not gonna do it my way this year, gonna be patient and trust the plans that I pay good $ for. As we started this VO2 phase, I was tempted by my old ways and even hit Patrick up for advice, and was reminded of just what you mentioned.
Look at like this. Part of the attraction of EN is to get faster and stronger results by working efficiently, to get the most out of as little time as possible. I think for most of us AG'ers, we lose sight of this. If I can believe that the OS works even on just 7-9 hrs a week, then I can believe that these VO2 sessions are still working even if I perceive each workout as 'not as tough' as the FTP work.
Thanks for the reminder.
Now, applesauce mixed with amino acids, 2 cups of joe, and off to the cave for the Saturday bike.....
Hey MIke I'm gonna say thanks for sharing that piece of wisdom...at precisely the right time I think....I have been in the "Haus" for a year...but I started with an IM training plan...not in the OS...so this is my first full OS...and you really hit it...this first week I was feeling like I needed/wanted to do more...the VO2 intervals are hard..but they feel "refreshing" compared to threshold (for me any way)...its is easy to see how you goud do exactly as you say...and dig yourself a deep hole...these are hard work...and take a toll on your body...but you are dangling on an edge and if you over do it could take the fall............its important to remember the advice from RnP ...there is no benefit to overdoing the bike intervals...THANKS FOR THE REMINDER...it means alot when it comes from a peer v the coach.
saturday bike...
wu 2.0, then 2x 14' (4') at .96 and .97 These were tough cuz 8wks of FTP work had gotten old and the previous week's VO2 work was a fresh change. I'm sure that it's very important to keep FTP work involved like this.
then 6x 60''on & 60'' off, these were tougher than the earlier wko with VO2 since it was coming on the heels of the FTP intervals.
then 2x 5' (2') of Hi Force Lo Cadence Climb work. I'm working this in during the VO2 phase to help get ready for the mtn rides coming up in the spring.
will run this afternoon.
Z4 2 x 10' + 1 x 5'
10' @ .998 IF, avg cad 86
10' @ .974 IF, avg cad 65
5'' @ .953 IF, avg cad 74
Z3 2 x 15'
15' @ .819 IF, avg cad 71
15' @ .826 IF, avg cad 64
15' Run- 1.41 mi
Solid brick. It was a very tough-looking workout on paper, but somehow it all came together. Grazing all day on muffins and carb-laden crap in the office yesterday, combined with a massive dinner I ate last night at a party at my boss' house might have contributed to the good energy level.
@ Mike G - Thanks for the sage advice on the VO2 intervals.
@ Kim, Chris, Matt and Scott - Nice work today.
I did the bike WO. WU:EZ 15' with 5 spin ups. Then 2 x 14' (4') @ 268W (97% IF) with HR 155-160. Then 6 x 1' (1') @ 328w (119%IF) with HR 166-168. Those VO2 intervals were really hard after the FTP intervals. I had to take the 1' rest down to 100W to make sure I could hit the work intervals. Then did 1 x 10' @ 228W (83%IF) with HR 150-153. Wow!! Legs really feelin it.
My heel was feeling fine so I took it for a test run. Did 1/4 mile @ 10:00 pace and began to feel slight pain. Backed off to a walk for 3 minutes, then started up again. Ran 3/4 mile before the pain slowly came back, so I stopped completely. So in total I ran 1 stinking mile @ 10:00 pace. I've iced the heel 3 times today. Conclusion: still need to rest and let it heal, so I've decide to take at least another full week off from running. On the bright side, my HR on the run was only 120 bpm after a mile, so all the cycling and swimming I'm doing in place of running seems to be keeping me in some sembalance of run condition too.
Good luck with the run tomorrow. Wish I could join you.
That's just me, tho.
Wow Great ride yesterday...patiently waited for the rain to clear and was rewarded with a nice afternoon to ride...took the roadie bike out and did 36 miles in 1:52 just over 19mph avg. which included the scheduled workout of 2x18min. Z4 & 8min. of Z5 "on-time" done as 1min:1min...remainder Z3 .....followed that up with 3.5mile/26min.run...(which realized I wasn't supposed to do..so will skip Sundays brick).....I am tired this morning...but think I will get outside again today and do my planned 8min. of Intervals as hill sprints? maybe....see how I feel once I'm out on the road.
@ Chris - thanks for sharing your experience. I'm just going to not run for as long as it takes to get better. It acutally feels fine this am so I don't think the "test" run made it any worse. Anyway, I swam 2500 yards this morning. Overall, felt pretty good and finished with 10 x 50 yard sprints. Was able to hold the times @ 50-52" per 50 yds with stroke count of 39-40 per lap. Still not as fast as many ENers but I'm getting better.
Great work all and awesome advise from both Mike and Chris.
Bruce I feel the injury pain and would second Chris's advise. Yesterday I did a full 1/2 mile run @ 11:00 pace. Just slowly working the knee back into shape. Felt a little stiff after the run but not too bad.
Followed the run up with a solid 2 hr on the bike. Temps were in the low 80's so it was a beautiful day out with a fairly strong wind from the south. Hit the OS W/U for 22" then
MS1: 2x14' (4') as 1.03 and 1.00
MS2 6x60"/60" as 1.19, 1.17, 1.21, 1.19, 1.23, 1.22
MS3 2x15' (2') as 0.83 and 0.85
Then JRH total of 35 miles, TSS 151.9
Following WKO had smoothie and iced the knee. Then off to coach my daughters soccer team in league championship game. They won in double sudden death overtime 1-0 less than 2 min before the shootout and my little girl score the goal. Then off to a pizza party. And yes I did have a little pizza OK it was a lot but only a little cake. Last night the knee was stiff and sore but feels great today.
Sunday Run:
20' with the mtn bike out on some local paths to get to the HS track, with shoes n such in sling. Lots of fun to warmup that way.
cut the run a touch short cuz its so dang WINDY today, about 38deg with a 30mph wind made it a chore.
but hit the goals for the work,
descending splits 7:50, 7:40, 7:30 with 800 ez jog in between
then another fun 20' cooldown using the 29er on the paths back to the house.
I'm gonna do this a little more often! But, it will be even better when the weather cooperates some.
y'all have a great Sunday, enjoy the rest day tomorrow.
I wasn't really feeling it in anticipation of the run this afternoon – probably due to a large-breakfast and then "tasters" from Whole Foods sitting in my stomach. But it turned out to be a blistering pace today, starting with a fast "warmup" right out of the gates. Running with my buddy Andrew always seems to be worth an extra 10 sec per mile.
Overall 8.92 mi in 1:00:01 (6:44 pace). A few stops for tunnels, waiting for Andrew, etc. Current z4=6:58, z3=7:07, z2=7:24.
Warmup
- 13.5' @6:26
- 3.5' @ 7:17 ("re-warmup" after waiting to meet up with my buddy Andrew)
Main Set
2x 10.5' @z4 – 6:31, 6:27
(4' recoveries – 7:59, 7:39)
"Remainder time"
- 6' @6:30
- 1' @7:33
- 6.5' @6:35
http://connect.garmin.com/player/154965519
Wrapped up first week of VO2/Bike Hack with a decent ride outside...it was colder today than yesterday...and windier!...Steady ride included 16min. of 30:30 Z5 intervals...half with the wind & half against...wind was brutal! Total of 25mile in 1:21 (18.5mph avg.)...Avg. HR was 151 (solid Z3)..and avg. cadence of 90....because I bricked yesterday by mistake I did not run today...definitely looking forward to a hard rest day tommorrow.
Got a good bike in yesterday. Starting to use my weekends to build up a bit more durability in anticipation of the GCG race, so I did a 2.5 hour Spinervals Z3 workout. All in total of 110 minutes of Z3 time, definitely some good work!
Today was a 9 mile fartlek (since I hate doing structured intervals on hilly runs, and there's nothing but hills around me). Felt good, but these legs are looking forward to some time off tomorrow!
Run was rough today. Did it out in the "real world" vs. 'mill and was much harder, plus I was on day 5 in a row of training and legs had had it. Managed to hit paces for first two 1/2 mi intervals, but the last 1/2 mile and 1 mile Z4s were not at pace. I gave myself the slack to "just finish" and thanked my legs for a great week. I figure I did 95% of what the plan had written so trying not to get caught up in doing every last step exactly if various body parts protest.
Travel tomorrow and Tues. but hopefull will be back to train Tues. night....
Great week of work all and keep it up!