Course selection for first 140.6. Looking for a flat course in 08/2019.

Larry Peters · July 30, 2018 10:59PM

Hi, I'm very excited to take on my first 140.6. With my work schedule, I can train a lot more May-August than the rest of the year. So I'm looking at an August 2019 IM. I am a heavier triathlete (180-200 pounds), so I'm strongly leaning toward a flat course so I can have a better time and be more competitive (raw watts on flats vs. W/kg on climbs).

Those are my initial selection criteria. If anyone has reasoning as to why I should reconsider those criteria, I'm happy to hear and consider!

I know this race will be more expensive, but I'm hoping if I book way in advance (and only have to book for myself, no kids or significant other), it won't be too bad and I love to travel. I'm also a bit disappointed to have to sacrifice having more EN teammates, like at a race closer to home. But my competitive side would really like to give myself the best shot I can at a decent time and age group place.

That seems to leave IM Copenhagen or IM Sweden (Kalmar). IM Tallin is in early August and claims to have a flat bike course (less than 1000 m climbing), but also warns that the run has quite a few vertical meters (over 320). And I would rather have 2 more weeks of summer IM training.

It seems like international ironman don't usually give an amount of climbing. But they do describe the courses as fast/flat and I did find strava files for the courses.

IM Sweden bike (2005 feet of climbing in a 2013 Strava file)
https://www.strava.com/activities/76283840

IM Copenhagen bike (2014 feet climbing in a 2014 Strava file)
https://www.strava.com/activities/184818455

Thoughts on choosing between those two races? Sweden goes over a 6km bridge twice and that sounds awesome! I'm leaning toward Sweden because it sounds more appealing to me, but I"m wondering what others think.

Are there other races I should consider? A non-Ironman branded race? If so, why (save money?)? Conversely, are there good reasons to go with an ironman branded race for my first race if there is no way I can KQ (I've got some in mind, but wonder what others think). I should have All World Athlete Status for next year with Ironman too, so it would be nice to take advantage of those benefits.

Any other tips would be greatly appreciated! I searched the EN forums for "Sweden" and found the thread below helpful.
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/249446#Comment_249446

I thought this comment was great! Thanks @Paul Hough

"The last time I went to Zurich, I booked on my own, but specifically chose a hotel that was in Nirvana's portfolio because I know they negotiate very early breakfast times on race morning...sure enough the hotel had breakfast open at 0400 for IM Switzerland even though I wasn't using Nirvana at all. "

Thanks!

Al Truscott · July 30, 2018 11:33PM

Gronk, as important as total elevation in the nature of it. Remember Fryingpan Road? 33 miles; first 12 miles @ 2% +/-, next 10 mi up and down @ 4-7%, then 11 mile @ 2-3%. A big guy like you can really hammer up a false flat (and back down again), but will have trouble with the more punchy sections. On Strava flies and ridewithgps.com files, you can hone in on the climbs and see how long they are (long and steady is preferable to lots of ups and downs), and how steep (the less the better).

Also, you do know that IM MD has NO elevation change. The high point is a small bridge which tops out at 10 feet above sea level. Turby Wright just did a race rehearsal yesterday I saw on Strava. 100 miles with 75' total gain. But it might be hard to get away for that early Oct event.

Paul Hough · July 31, 2018 2:14AM

@Larry Peters - I did IM Kalmar in 2013 ... race report should be out there somewhere. There's a lot more to do in Copenhagen than in Kalmar but my wife really likes the small towns. We actually did both cities by flying into Copenhagen and touring there a few days before taking the train to Kalmar. TriRating.com has Kalmar just a slight notch harder than Copenhagen but both are definitely among the 'easier' IMs. Of all the IMs I've done, I would say the top 3 so far are 1) Haugesund, 2) Kalmar and 3) Regensburg. But I'm sure other people would think my scoring is nuts.

John Withrow · July 31, 2018 2:39PM

@Gronk Are you looking at European races because you "want" to go overseas? Or simply because they fit into your schedule? I haven't done any of the European races, so can't really opine on any of them. If your reason is you want to travel and do a race far away, then listen to @Paul Hough because he's our resident expert on all of those races...

IF it's just for timing/scheduling reasons, I think you should strongly consider IM Mt Tremblant (usually the ~3rd weekend of August). You and I are about the same size and I've seen you ride and by 2019 you will certainly qualify as a "strong" cyclist. In my 9 Ironmans to date, IMMT is actually my PR Race. I've done 2 very flat courses (Florida and Cozumel), and for me MT was "better" than a flat course. I've found that perfectly flat courses do give me a faster bike split, but this comes at a cost (to ME in my n=1 experiments)... I don't know if it's the lack of variation in cadence or position, but both of those flat bike courses blew out my quads. Most of the IMMT bike course is on a highway with gradual inclines and gradual declines. Bigger guys can use momentum very well on this rolling type of terrain and it gives you just enough variation. Yes there is a medium sized climb at the tail end of each loop, but it's only ~5-10 mins and isn't that bad (especially with the right gearing and EN Ninja execution). Here's my Strava file from that course: https://www.strava.com/activities/181762734 Bonus points for that race is that it is only about a ~10-11 hour drive for you, so you could take your bike in your car and have your whole car full of food if you wanted to make a road trip out of it!

Happy to hop on a call anytime if you want more details.

scott dinhofer · July 31, 2018 5:12PM

@Larry Peters - Gronk - listen to the smart people up here. I am also interested in hearing if there are time of year issues on when you go your IM? Remember the biggest thing is not when the race happens but when the bulk of the training happens. In other words, if you have a 2 week taper, your biggest training weeks in terms of hours are from weeks 12-2 prior to the event with weeks 8-2 having the biggest time commitment. Thus, if you are working with a return to school for the last week of August, Events like IMMT play well with your calendar.

Remember that climbing courses also aren't as steep as the climbs you may do on your normal bike rides, it's rare for any IM course to have a spot with a higher than 6% grade. If you are disciplined in your power output, these courses will suck up your competition when you ride steady watts (smart) and they are crushing hills. I'd also point out that aside from @John Withrow's statements above, Coach P who is a big guy always dominated on the IMLP course which was his favorite for many years.

You may be a "big" guy, but you are lean. You can also back off of the upper body weight training for the next year and that will help as well.

Lastly, on the IM brand. If you want to ever accumulate enough finishes for a legacy spot, I'd not trifle with other brands, but that's a long way off.

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 3:10PM

Thanks a million @Al Truscott , @Paul Hough , @John Withrow and @Scott Dinhofer !!

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 3:14PM

@Al Truscott , I really appreciate that important consideration to look more closely at Strava/ride with GPS files on the climbing to see if it is long and steady or short and punchy. I will do that. Yes, I remember those climbs. IMMD sounds very appealing with such little climbing. But I don't think I can bail on that much class for a race at this point. And next fall's work schedule has some extra variables that may increase my work load. That would make the final ~4 weeks of IM build extra challenging during the school year. In a future IM attempt, IMMD may be a good choice. Thanks for the recommendation!

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 3:34PM

@Paul Hough , it looks like i found your race report (link below for anyone interested). Thanks a million! That is awesome that Kalmar ranks as your #2 favorite IM. I appreciate knowing that. I also did not know about Trirating.com. That is a great resource. It is interesting that Kalmar & Copenhagen rate right next to each other. I will also consider the fact that Copenhagen has a slightly faster rating. Reading about that brutal wind in Kalmar makes me want to consider Copenhagen a bit more.

Did you write a race report for Copenhagen?

Would you be able to say whether racing/traveling to etc. Copenhagen or Kalmar was more expensive?

https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/183616#Comment_183616

Paul Hough · August 1, 2018 4:16PM

@Larry Peters - it took a lot to top Kalmar, but Haugesund managed to do so ... but maybe it was just because my wife and I had a great time. But really, we've absolutely loved every European IM we've been to just for the experience and travel. Kalmar would be a little more expensive than Copenhagen because the latter is your closest major airport and then the cheapest way to get to Kalmar is to take the train so that's an additional cost. On the other hand, Kalmar isn't as large so hotel and food costs were lower for me. You would have to price it out and see if the hotel/food savings would cover the train cost. I booked a hotel in Kalmar through Nirvana that had 3/4 board - e.g., the hotel provided breakfast and what was described as a light dinner but in reality was a full meal. It was fantastic. When I came back to my room after the race, there was fruit basket including a coke and chocolate bar from the hotel along with a congrats note. If you go to Kalmar, be sure to tour the Castle and the Cathedral at the finish. Walking around the town was very quaint and my wife and daughter had a great time checking out all the shops. If you wanted to tour Stockholm instead of Copenhagen you could fly there but it is a longer train ride to Kalmar. We went to Stockholm after an ITU race in Motola, Sweden and I would say there is much more to do in Stockholm than Copenhagen, but both are worth seeing. As much as I loved Kalmar, you don't need but 1 day to tour it and you can fit in the Castle and Cathedral between IM prep. Save some time for either Copenhagen or Stockholm. I think it would take about 3 days to see all the major things in Copenhagen but double that for Stockholm ... it just depends on how much you want to take in.

FYI - at Kalmar I stayed at the Clarion Collection Hotel Packhuset ... short walk from the train station which is how I roll. Likewise, in Copenhagen I stayed at what is now the Copenhagen Plaza - it is adjacent to the central train station (goal is to minimize bike bag drag) and directly across the street from Tivoli Gardens (not to be missed). But if I were doing IM Copenhagen I would want a hotel closer to the action.

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 4:16PM

@John Withrow and @Scott Dinhofer , thanks a million for the insights & encouragement. Having the race in August is #1 consideration. I appreciate the reminder about the time commitment being biggest in the 12-2 weeks before the event. That is even more reason to race in August because my May-August should be the best time to train. This summer I planned more traveling than would be ideal for training-focused summer. So next summer I'm planning on minimal traveling & maximal training.

So a major draw to Sweden or Copenhagen is the fact that they are relatively flat and the best time of year for me to race. However, I do love to travel, I do enjoy international travel and I have not been to Denmark or Sweden. So the international adventure factor does appeal to me, but it does add a bit of concern too with the extra stress associated with an overseas race.

I do find the thought of IMMT appealing and it does fit my schedule. I have really enjoyed Quebec and the French Canadian culture in the past. I like the fact that it would be cheaper and easier to get to (and I could have a car full of food!

). I appreciate your encouragement that I could still have a strong race on a course with so much climbing with proper gearing/execution and it is good to know that JW & Coach P both race well on courses with climbing.

It is very interested @John Withrow , that you had a worse race at both Cozumel and Florida vs. IMMT (and other "hillier" courses from the sounds of it). I think I really do compete better on flatter courses, but I don't have a ton of racing data on that.

I did Steelhead 70.3 last August and CdA 70.3 this June. I didn't have power last year, so it is hard to compare, but it seemed like my bike split was more competitive at Steelhead (time of year, taper quality & training volume is a variable, however). I'm about to do Steelhead 70.3 (relatively flat) and Atlantic City 70.3 (very flat), so I guess I'll see how those performances compare to CdA (which I imagine is more comparable to IMMT).

During CdA, there were times when I couldn't pedal down hills or even had to sit-up/brake because of no passing zones on descents. Granted, that gave my legs a chance to rest, but as a bigger person that puts me at a greater disadvantage.

I'll give IMMT vs. flat Europe course more thought. I really appreciate all the feedback.

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 4:22PM

@Scott Dinhofer , thanks for calling me lean

. I guess it is all relative. I was definitely lean by triathlon standards last fall & part of winter, but March-August has not been the case IMHO. Hopefully I can get my body comp dialed in again in the coming months. I'm planning another BQ attempt in March 2019, so that should hone in my focus.

I mostly lift upper body (and lower body for that matter) when I have an ache or pain that needs to be alleviated or prevented. But I there are times I could potentially cut it back further to try and make me lighter. In 2011, however, I stopped lifting altogether to try to dedicate all my training to endurance, and I was plagued by injuries because strength training seems critical for me to stay injury free.

And great point about the potential for a legacy slot years down the road. That is a great reason to stick w/ IM brand.

Thanks again!

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 4:34PM

@Scott Dinhofer and @John Withrow , it may sound silly, but one additional draw to a flatter course is the ability to have an overall faster finish time even if my performance relative to the rest of the field isn't any better.

Again, I'm surprised that you had a faster time at IMMT than Florida or Cozumel @John Withrow . I wonder to what extent that is an exception rather than a common occurrence.

Larry Peters · August 1, 2018 4:36PM

@Paul Hough , thanks a ton for the additional info on your experiences with European IMs!

scott dinhofer · August 1, 2018 9:05PM

@Larry Peters - Love the dialogue and thought stream.
MT is not a course where you will spin out except in one short section. there you will go aero like a bullet!

as for finish times, I've done IMMT, IMMT (2) IMAZ(3) IMKY(2) & IMWI. given that I am now off of my usual cycle, Coach P and I have had the discussion (again) about my own race selection, flat or hilly. We've gone with hilly. ability to sit up, change gears, etc..

Also, when you try to compare your CdA, AC & SH races, remember that you need to look at your % of finish in the field, not race time. That's the equalizer. Also remember that you are building strength through the season and experience on how to race better. I'd honestly go with the calendar and frankly we all know MT is going to be cheaper and have a ton of EN folks that will make your weekend an even better experience.

My vote is for you to do MT!!

Tim Sullivan · August 1, 2018 9:33PM

I've really enjoyed the European races I've done. In many cases they can actually be less expensive than US races.

I agree with @John Withrow regarding not needing a flat course. You better be really good at staying aero for a LONG time on a flat course. A course with rolling hills might be much more enjoyable. CDA isn't rolling. My favorite bike was Haugesund. I only saw half of it since I did the 70.3. It's hard but it's rolling. It's not easy. The run is good.

I would not get caught up on picking a course to have the "best" time. You have plenty of time to get better and better times. Pick a course that is a great IM course where you can learn what works. IM Switzerland was a good course that had tons of spectators and a great after race experience. The bike isn't flat but the run is flat. The swim is great. I've heard great things about IMMT including that the roads are in great shape.

Al Truscott · August 2, 2018 2:26AM

Rob is a novice @ IM, so it might help his learning curve to indeed think about the "easiest" courses. But that isn't necessarily flat ones. Something like Florida or Arizona, which rewards staying aero for 5-6 hours, can be hard on the hip flexors when it comes time to run. A course which allows some time to be in different positions can help on the run. Finally, a course which is a lot of ups and downs, like Wisconsin, can be deadly for first-timers, as there are so many opportunities to mess up the bike leg by working too hard up the hills and out of the turns.

In the end, I come down on the side of Tim: all IM courses are "hard", they just have different ways to abuse you on the bike, Pick the time and place you like, learn what it takes to make *that* course as "easy" as possible, in terms of setting up a good run. Then focus in the 12-20 weeks before the race on practicing those skills during the long bikes. Mold yourself to the course, not the other way around, and you'll become a better triathlete sooner.

Larry Peters · August 2, 2018 4:29PM

Continued thanks for the feedback @Scott Dinhofer , @Tim Sullivan and @Al Truscott !

I really appreciate all that feedback. It doesn't look like Copenhagen or Sweden are perfectly flat @Tim Sullivan , so there will be some opportunities to break up my position. But I am pretty flexible and do enjoy fairly regular yoga/deep stretching, so staying aero *may* be a relative strength of mine...I guess AC 70.3 may be a good test, because that is perfectly flat (granted staying aeror for 56 or 112 miles are comparing a "Dog vs. a bear" to quote @Alicia Chase , but it will be a nice comparison to Steelhead which does have some rolling hills) .

@Scott Dinhofer , I will be sure to examine my "% of finish in the field, not race time." That is a better comparison, as you said. That is good to know that Coach P and you decided on a hillier course.

@Tim Sullivan , those other courses (like Switzerland) could be great, but the calendar is the key variable for me right now. I really want it to be August. Late July could be doable, but for my first IM, I really want to maximize the value of my flexible summer schedule for IM performance (a valuable asset in my IM arsenal). 3 additional weeks of high volume training could really make a big difference. I also appreciate the endorsement for European IMs.

@Al Truscott , in terms of molding myself to the course, training in Michigan complements a course like Copenhagen or Switzerland (gently rolling to flat) more than IMMT. So that is another reason to start with a course that resembles my back yard more closely. It is easier to train to the course.

I will more seriously consider the course & experience rather than the amount of climbing as a result of this conversation. I will say a few other factors: the allure of an overseas IM is real, IM Sweden rides over a 6+ km bridge twice & that sounds cool, my brother and sister in law are interested in supporting me in a destination race and Sweden appeals to them (I'll ask them about Quebec). And, in a long term view, being able to do different courses over time does appeal to me. Right now I'm single and have no children. Therefore it is probably easier for me to do an overseas IM than it would be in the future (if I do get married and start a family one of these days). If I have a family one day, doing an IM course I can drive to (like IMMT) would be preferred over something like Europe (at least with my current financial situation). Doing a European IM with kids and a spouse sounds much more complicated and expensive.

In terms of team mojo @Scott Dinhofer , I get the impression a lot of EN's (at least the ones I talk to regularly on Group me) are doing Leadville in August. So there may be less EN presence at IMMT? On the plus side for IMMT, @Francis Picard , said he would sherpa for me and be my big spoon if I did IMMT. So that is pretty tempting.

I am hoping/thinking I can see how Steelhead and AC go relative to CdA and still be able to get in an early registration tier. If I really crush one of those flatter races, that will be a factor to push me toward a flatter (not perfectly flat) IM course.

Continued thanks team!

Course selection for first 140.6. Looking for a flat course in 08/2019.

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