Leadville MTB Consolidated Lessons Learned 2019

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  tim cronk

  September 1, 2019 11:13AM

  @matt limbert Great compilation of lessons learned from yourself @Emily Brinkley @Pat Morton @PatKoss @Mike Graffeo @Tom Leard. Absolutely invaluable.

  Sorry I didnt my thoughts together sooner, but I think delaying a bit has given me even more perspective. Disclaimer- I have very little MTB experience period. My thoughts are coming from three different views, 1. Leadville MTB 100 Observer. 2. Leadville 100 Ultrarunner finisher. 3. Interested Leadman competitor.

  Bike Choice- The discussion on HT vs. FS is obviously not a black and white choice, like you think it would be, and to hear people would change from there choice in both directions, makes it an even harder choice. At first glance I would definitely go HT to save weight, specially if only doing the LV MTB 100. On second thought if doing the Leadman, I may consider the FS (easier on the body) with a 10k run the next day and the 100 run the week, after this maybe a key move, in saving the body. Either way its obvious I would need/want a different bike than the 31lb monster I have. 1. within financial budge get the lightest bike possible. 2. use clip on aero bars - not so much for aero savings all though that would be a benefit but mostly for a chance to change position rest the fatigued hands, I saw many people shaking there hands and heard a few comments about this , it is also something I have experienced on my MTB .

  2 Questions on Bikes.

  1. How many with or without dropper posts would change? Is this a must have item?
  2. I know the winners have won on all types of bikes , HT, FS, 29er, 27.5, etc. Does anyone know if there is an average differential in finishing times among the mere mortals using HT vs FS?

  Fueling- Bento box would be key, much more accessible than jersey or pack IMO. I saw a few but not a lot. I know Emily had one. Heather has one on her MTB which I like a lot. I would also use a Gel Flask.

  Prep- I like the comment on focus riding the areas nobody talks about. Familiarity with the terrain is always key to racing, I would definitely learn the start to Twin Lakes miles the best, this is when it is the most crowded and knowledge of these miles would be really helpful. Once spread out knowledge of the terrain would be helpful but less important to me.

  W/kg - yes we all know about this, bring the highest watts and lowest kg. but it really is the total package of weight - body, bike, what your carrying. Having done the 100 run , and had @Bill Manard mule my gear for one of the climbs it was such a huge relief even for 30 minutes. Unlike the run the bike you have to carry all your own stuff.

  Simplify, simplify, simplify as much as possible. Easier said than done , I know. Specially at Leadville with chance of weather its really difficult to separate necessary items and those we really can do without. When I picked up my drop bag from the Run I saw 100's of bags full of junk that never got used, having witnessed the same at the MTB TwinLake AS and Drop Bag pick up. Here is a quote from an article about mental fatigue in Ultra Running but I think it applies here.

  "I would make a bet that most athletes’ race day plans actually place MORE stress on them than they would experience in training by incorporating unnecessary choices, more options, and needless complication."

  https://trainright.com/mental-fatigue-ultramarathon-running/?utm_source=ctsnewsletter&utm_medium=email

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  Patrick Morton

  September 1, 2019 8:27PM

  Bike Choice- Full Suspension vs. HardTail

  @tim cronk the question of bike choice and set up in Leadville comes down to a few different factors. Looking at the VeloNews article it was evenly split between HardTail and Full Suspension. Jonathan from the TrainerRoad Podcast said Full Suspension for sure after doing an (easy for him) 8:14, but if you listen to Lee McCormack in the podcast he says a proper bike optimized for climbing (light weight hardtail).

  Purely from a what’s faster point of view, the Light Weight Hardtail is going to be faster uphill and the Full Suspension faster on the downhill. As we all know, much more time is spent going up hill and a Hardtail is both more efficient and lighter. So, if this were a Time Trial I’m willing to bet a Hardtail would be faster. The Pro riders who were riding Full Suspension bikes said they weren’t worried about losing the group on the climbs, but (because they were roadies) they didn’t want to get separated on the descents.

  For anyone other than the Pros, the limit to your speed going down Columbine is not related to your bike choice, it is the riders around you (both going up and down) that limit you. If we eliminate The Columbine descent from the equation you end up with 11,000 feet of climbing and 7,000 feet of descending. Really the 3 trickiest descents where a Full Suspension Bike would help out are PowerLine outbound (3.64 miles), SugarLoaf to Hagerman inbound (1.79 miles) and St Kevens inbound (1.14 miles). My times on these 3 sections (in the Stage Race) were 12:20, 5:39, 2:54 for a total of less than 21 minutes in a 513 minute race (again times from the Stage Race). Even if it took 20% longer in those segments, ~4minutes, that time would more than be made up in the 11,000feet of climbing. I think the gouge that was being passed around was that 1 pound was worth 5 minutes? So losing 5 pounds of bike weight is worth??

  So, why would someone chose a Full Suspension Bike like I did in 2019? Riding a Mountain Bike takes a lot more Core and Upper Body engagement than a Road Bike does and controlling the bike over uneven surfaces (not to mention the jarring and bumping) takes a lot of energy. The longer you are out on the Mountain Bike the more this can cause fatigue (the older you are as well). I’m in my 50s and I knew this fatigue could play a big factor in my race as the day went on. I think several of the other EN racers mentioned how tough this race was on their upper body and core. A Full Suspension Bike can really help with this.

  Recommendations- the continuum largely runs between the Young/Fast/Confident/MTBike rider looking to shave every last second (HardTail) and the “Seasoned”/Slower/Less-Confident/Rodie who trains indoors a lot (Full Suspension). All of us need to figure out which will effect us more, carrying the extra weight of a Full Suspension Bike up hill or the Fatigue associated with getting beaten up by a HardTail. Generally 10-12 hours finishers Full Suspension, 8:30 or less HardTail, 8:30 to 10:00 Where are your strengths?

  I will be going for Sub 9 hours, looking to shave every last pound and second. I will spend more than 300 hours on dirt training next Spring and I am a strong/confident Mountain Biker. I have ordered a 2020 Specialized Epic HardTail that should build up to 4-5 pounds lighter than the Specialized Epic FSR that I rode this year.

  Dropper Post- a good dropper post only adds 200 grams to a bike. But it does add complexity and have been known to fail or create issues on race day. If a dropper post makes you more confident on the descents, go for it. I will not be using one.

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  scott dinhofer

  September 2, 2019 9:09PM

  great analysis @Pat Morton - I visited this extensively. I think first and foremost, one really needs to look not just at LV, but the terrain that one would ride a FS MTB on generally. Let's not focus on DH bikes or XC bikes, but a "trail" bike as the industry tends to call them. These are bikes that you can climb and descend in typical east coast MTB parks which I understand can be more technical than the open spaces one typically rides out west. Rock gardens, downed trees, small boulders, knarly roots, etc.. In these conditions you need a FS bike.

  Do we have any of THAT in the LV race??? The top of columbine is a bit gnarly. Powerline out was a bit more treacherous when i did it, but the gullies had been smoothed out by the power co is my understanding this year. I would also add that I have literally ridden in bike parks in the east around 20x in my life. I am a good natural MTBer, but I do not have the skills one builds from doing this frequently. I found nothing of great difficulty when I did LV in '16. Reflecting on your analysis, my greatest difficulty with PL out was not the terrain, I actually enjoyed that and found I could not run the lines the way I preferred because of the people around me.

  For me, this is a climbing race. your DH speed is more a factor of the issues around you, I find this in gravel too. I can't bomb the descents the way I would on a known course on a road/tri bike, because it's too easy to wipe out due to micro terrain/surface issues or just someone else causing a problem. I do my set up as a weight weenie. 29er HT XC bike, carbon rims, carbon cranks, etc. I will not put a dropper post on it, as they are heavy and I know I can use this bike for anything without it. I also have a 27.5 FS bike that I use for parks and would use in more technical races, so I have the luxury of leaving this bike setup for LV. If I do LV again, i will likely change the bike to a 1x and add a stages PM at the same time.

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  matt limbert

  September 6, 2019 9:38PM

  @John Withrow Everything to get you started on Leadville.

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  matt limbert

  September 6, 2019 9:51PM edited September 6, 2019 10:02PM

  FS for Lutsen and/or Leadville. Let the debate continue. Oh, and considering with or without a power meter. Go!

  The Real EB

  Depends on yo’ handling skills, IMO. I know I’m a squirrelly rider on a MTB so FS saves my arse in more ways than one. Now give me a year on single track and breaking down my technique, and Mama might be at the start line with that 17 lbs s-works  Just kidding on the s works part. Who are we kidding. But HT of some sort, yes.

  Matt limbert

  What about the Power meter? Did you use it much during the race? Post race - what did you learn?

  Pat Morton

  Ha! I'm a Power Meter guy. No so much for race day, but for training. Training on the road bike never quite duplicates your mountain bike.

  I learned that decreasing my power from 230w to 210w on St Kevens only cost 53 seconds and decreased my HR by more then 10bpm

  Matt limbert

  The MTB doesn't come with a power meter, but it can. Is necessary? Worth It?

  The Real EB

  Yes, it kept me in check for the first half of the race. I was right in my wheelhouse until I had to hoof it on Columbine. Next year I would try to lap it when I’m walking and have NP read for current lap.

  Pat Morton

  I'd take a power Meter over carbon wheels

  The Real EB

  I still think it allows you to not burn so many matches early on. Prob the reason I finished with a smile too.

  My real issue is 1: getting proper corral placement and 2: getting to St Kevin’s before everyone behind me. That screwed me from the get go. I pretty much started the race with the BLUE corral instead of PURPLE because of those first 6 miles.

  Matt Limbert

  Before this becomes a hardtail group hug....I'm still a fan of the FS - I can ride it lots of other places. I did switch to full-carbon and went as light as I could - not too far (within 2-3 lbs ish) of a high end hardtail. I can lock out the front and rear from the handlebar. I like it for Columbine, Sugarloaf, St. Kevin's descent - which are not that long (time wise), but crashing is slow and I can make/tolerate more line choice mistakes. Power meter? - maybe in the future...l would use the lap function like EB suggested depending on the terrain. But, HR and RPE was doable.

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  John Withrow

  September 9, 2019 9:24PM

  Thanks @matt limbert @scott dinhofer @Emily Brinkley @Pat Morton and @tim cronk this was super helpful.

  I'll be retiring from Ironman (again) after Kona this year. I haven't made this official anywhere, so I guess this is the first public announcement. I might come back to IM in a few years if I get the bug again, but 11 (assuming I finish Kona) is enough for me for now...

  My 8th grader joined our school's mountain bike team last yr. Since then Jess and I have become coaches and pretty much taken over the direction of the team. Jess is the Team director and literally does everything to organize the team. My job is simply to ride my bike hard and push the faster High School kids. I bought both of us (me and Jess) really sweet Titanium HT bikes last winter. I wanted something light but also durable. That was the right decision because I have crashed mine 3x already and didn't break anything on the bike. My fitness and lack of fear far surpasses my ability to actually ride a mtn bike... My original plan was to have this as a decent bike to ride with the kids and have something that would also double as a race bike for longer races like Lutsen 99er (sort of local to us in MN).

  

  But now that I've decided to take a break from IM, All of the EN Leadville awesomeness has gotten into my system. The podcasts and Race Reports pushed me over the edge. So now I want to make doing LV my next project.

  Given that I'll likely be racing around ~190 lbs, I'll never be riding an 18lb mtn bike, not even if it's a high end HT. I've been told I'm too big to Safely/comfortably ride something like a Fox 32 SC fork, so I'll be rolling with a 34 SC (this adds a pound). I also can't have ultralight wheels, given my weight, need/want something more durable (probably also adds 0.5-1 lb). My Titanium Carver Gnarvester is a pretty nice build with GX components, XX1 crank, S-Works bars, Guide Ultimate brakes, Next Carbon Rims with I9 hubs, etc. It weighs in right around 23lbs. I'm also likely to be stuck in a back corral if I can even get into the race. And because I already have a 23lb HT, would be pretty hard for me to justify spending $$$$ to add a 20 or 21lb carbon HT to my collection just to take a few mins of for some of the climbs in LV (when I'm looking at a back of the pack finish anyways).

  So after reading this thread and the GroupMe stuff and talking to Matt Limbert, I decided that I could justify adding a FS bike to my stable and have it for my "race bike", but also for my "riding gnarly stuff" bike. The guy who built up my Gnarvester is a professional MTBer and also a mechanic and gets Team sponsorships and buys parts at wholesale prices. He's the same height as me (but he weighs 138lbs and has an FTP of ~380Watts and has superior MTB skills). So besides W/Kg, we're basically exactly the same... He offered to sell me the bike he built up to race on this season, and he's basically getting out flat, but I'm getting it for about a ~50% discount to buying it new at retail. I love nice things but I also love a good deal, so this checked both boxes.

  The interesting thing is that "as built", this FS will weigh almost exactly the same as my Ti HT that I would have been riding on (~23lbs). And since you can push a single button and lock all the suspension out (or just the rear if you choose), I think it should climb like my HT, but I get all of the other benefits of the FS. Best of both worlds (for me) and all I have to do is sell a couple of my other bikes (P5 and my old Aluminum HT ), then come out of pocket with the equivalent of a used Honda Civic.

  So if you're into the techie stuff, here is the spec:

  Santa Cruz Blur CC TR with a Fox Factory 34 SC Fork, AXS (Electronic) XX1 Shifter/RD, New XX1 Quarq crankset, ENVE wheelset with DT240s, ENVE Bars, Lev Ci Carbon Dropper post, SRAM Level Ultimate brakes.

  As of right now, my schedule for next year will be Austin Rattler, Lutsen 99er, then if all goes as planned, Leadville. If I don't get a lottery slot at Austin or Lutsen, then I'll consider either doing the Silver Rush 50 or Tahoe Trail, OR just buying a LV charity slot.

  Let the madness begin!

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  Scott Alexander

  September 10, 2019 1:48PM

  One more for the 2020 madness! YES!!!

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  Coach Patrick

  September 10, 2019 2:56PM

  Note, added the Planning Video Call to the initial post ^above^ 

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