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Using power as a tool for riding indoors?

First off, let me preface this by saying that I am absolutely not ready to race with power this/next year! Having just joined EN, I’m definitely suffering from sensory overload. Good overload, but overload nonetheless. There’s a lot swirling around in my head right now, and if I add trying to figure out which power device is right for me (hub, crank or wait for the pedal systems to mature) and start looking into all the associated h/w and s/w decisions, my head just might explode...

That being said… I’m about to start my OS plan. I will be doing my bike rides exclusively indoors on the trainer. Thus far, I’ve been using HR as my metric. That’s fine, but has its limits, e.g. today, I noticed that my HR monitor was lagging a good 15-20 seconds behind my effort when I was hitting those z5 intervals. However, coming from a low intensity, long hours background, ‘nailing’ my EN workouts and ensuring I get high quality, high ROI for time spent on my bike is a high priority for me. So, I’m wondering if using power for my trainer rides during the OS might be a useful tool to ensure I get more bang for the buck and thus enter my race season a stronger cyclist. Again, I wouldn’t race with power next year. (This also assumes I can get through Andrew Coggan’s book without losing my mind -- I’m a liberal arts major…).

I ride a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. From what I can tell, KK offers two power devices: a $80 wired bike computer that includes power (has the added advantage of serving as a regular bike computer (sans power) when the bike is off the trainer, which I don’t have); and they’re developing inRide (~ $200), a sensor which links to your iPhone and gives you power data. I understand that’s supposed to be available late November.

So, here are my two questions:

1) Recognizing that I won’t be training outside or racing with power next season, is there real value in using power as a training tool for my trainer rides during the OS as opposed to HR/RPE?

2) Is anyone familiar with the two solutions that KK offers and can provide some feedback, i.e. is the bike computer w/ power any good, or should I wait for inRide which wouldn’t be available until I’m about 1/3 to ½ through the OS? I’m assuming switching devices midway is not a good plan.

My apologies for rambling and thank you in advance for any feedback!

Comments

  • Kate,

    #2: I can't provide feedback about these devices, their accuracy, consistency, etc but, assuming they are good enough...

    #1: absolutely, training indoors with power is extremely useful, even if you don't race with it. That said, training and racing outside with power is incredibly valuable and I think you may be overestimating the difficulty of getting up to speed. Yes, it requires some head investment but you won't find a more power-savvy crew of folks on the planet than you will right here in EN.
  • I'd say that if you are going to make the leap to power, go for it, and don't wait. I think my powertap is the most important training tool I've every used. I have a wired PT, which you can get pretty inexpensively these days, that I use both indoor and out (wheelcover for races). Once you switch to power, you'll want it all the time.

    Like many things, you can go as deep as you want and learn a ton, or you can track some very simple metrics toe benefit from training with power. The OS is a great time to play with your powermeter, learn what you want to see on the display etc.
  • Posted By Kate Kaufer on 16 Oct 2012 03:56 PM

    First off, let me preface this by saying that I am absolutely not ready to race with power this/next year! Having just joined EN, I’m definitely suffering from sensory overload. Good overload, but overload nonetheless. There’s a lot swirling around in my head right now, and if I add trying to figure out which power device is right for me (hub, crank or wait for the pedal systems to mature) and start looking into all the associated h/w and s/w decisions, my head just might explode...

     

    Personally, don't sell yourself short on your ability to utilize power to race next year if that is something you WANT to do.  I found, after following the forums for almost 2 years that my understanding was still in no man's land.  Once I purchased a Powermeter (PT)  and rode for a month, it made enough sense where I could (1) train effectively with it, (2) understand what the metrics meant and which ones were the most important to focus on (3) use these metrics plus my data to form a good plan on what to race at.  You can easily earn that bachelor's degree in power during the OS enough to race next year.  The Master's and PhD are another story, but are not required in order to use the PM effectively.  I would also say that given Rich's deal in getting a PM means that you are pretty safe in not taking a huge hit if you decide you want crank (Quarq) from a PT (Hub) or vice versa.  Many of us have our preferences on hub vs crank, but I can't say I've heard someone say "I hate crank based" or "I hate hub based".  The issue more had to do with a specific company (which I believe went out of business/stopped supporting the product).  Powertap and Quarq have not been known to have crappy customer service (there is the occasional exception).

  • I think another thing to add here is that racing with power is very simple - WAY easier than training with power! I mean, when you are getting ready for your workout you'll have to memorize what to do, which interval for how long at what power and with how much rest in between. That's the most complicated part of it. Doing an interval at a given power is easy - just look at the number and either push harder or push less hard. :p

    Racing with a powermeter as a triathlete is super easy, you pretty much do an entire race at the same power. Doesn't get much easier than that!
  • That being said… I’m about to start my OS plan. I will be doing my bike rides exclusively indoors on the trainer. Thus far, I’ve been using HR as my metric. That’s fine, but has its limits, e.g. today, I noticed that my HR monitor was lagging a good 15-20 seconds behind my effort when I was hitting those z5 intervals. However, coming from a low intensity, long hours background, ‘nailing’ my EN workouts and ensuring I get high quality, high ROI for time spent on my bike is a high priority for me. So, I’m wondering if using power for my trainer rides during the OS might be a useful tool to ensure I get more bang for the buck and thus enter my race season a stronger cyclist. Again, I wouldn’t race with power next year. (This also assumes I can get through Andrew Coggan’s book without losing my mind -- I’m a liberal arts major…).

    I ride a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. From what I can tell, KK offers two power devices: a $80 wired bike computer that includes power (has the added advantage of serving as a regular bike computer (sans power) when the bike is off the trainer, which I don’t have); and they’re developing inRide (~ $200), a sensor which links to your iPhone and gives you power data. I understand that’s supposed to be available late November.

    So, here are my two questions:

    1) Recognizing that I won’t be training outside or racing with power next season, is there real value in using power as a training tool for my trainer rides during the OS as opposed to HR/RPE?

    2) Is anyone familiar with the two solutions that KK offers and can provide some feedback, i.e. is the bike computer w/ power any good, or should I wait for inRide which wouldn’t be available until I’m about 1/3 to ½ through the OS? I’m assuming switching devices midway is not a good plan.

    My apologies for rambling and thank you in advance for any feedback!

    During my first OS with Endurance Nation, I used HR for ~2 months.  (a) My HR lag for z5 intervals was closer to 1min so I had to do some serious guesstimating on effort and (b) as soon as I got my PowerTap, I wished I had done it sooner.  With respect to the difference of HR/RPE training and Power Training....it is the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting it.  It just does not compare.  I am not saying that training with HR/RPE is not valuable...it is, especially as we do it here in The Haus.

    I would urge you not to make the same mistake I did when purchasing my PT and try and do while trying to save a few bucks here or there.  With that in mind, I would NOT go the KurtKinetic method.  You will want to use your power data when you are training and racing outside.  What does that mean?  Either go new and buy a Powertap or Quark through Rich, or buy a completely built up wheel with a wireless, ANT+ compatible, powertap hub from a reputable seller on eBay.  [There are a number of teammates here that have done so without regret.]

    If you already have a GPS watch such as the Garmin310 or 910, then you don't really need a computer to view the power data.  But they are nice to have and can be very useful.....but that is for another thread.

    Hope this helps.

    Joe



     

  • Kate, in addition to the good info above, a few points from my personal experience. I loosely equate riding with power with running with pace. Each person has their own experience, but for me gaining pace/power were total game changers to the quality of my training. Prior to getting power, I rode/raced 10+ years using heart rate as my metric. I was/am happy with that experience and with the results that style gave me. After stalking EN and their free stuff for two years, I decided to try membership. From what I had gleaned from their massive amount of free info available, I knew that I would gain the most from coming into the house with power and so I found an end of model year sale on a power product and purchased it. I feel like it was the best investment in my bike training history. I bought the Coggins book everyone recommends that you get about a year prior to that and I'm quite sure that I'll actually get around to reading it one day. Until then, everything I've learned about power I've learned through the forums/wiki/discussions here. At the most basic level, there are only a few metrics you need to understand and you can easily get that without worrying about the detailed science and math going on under the hood of power analysis.

    At the end of the day, you can totally make serious progress with whatever metric you use to judge your efforts in the house (perceived effort, heart rate, or power) and all of the programs are designed to support each. However, I believe that power is a really good investment to quantify your efforts and worth the investment, especially and specifically in the outseason. Good luck with whatever you do decide to go with.
  • A cheap way to get into power is to use TrainerRoad. All you need is your KK trainer, a $10/mo subscription to TR, a cheap Garmin USB stick and a cadence sensor on your bike. Check out their website. It'll give you a virtual power number and so long as you set up your bike the same all the time, it's good enough. Tons of courses, or just use the blank templates and do the EN workout as written.

    Using TR will give you a feel for your power numbers, let you export numbers into analytical software like WKO and help you ask questions in the forms to get smarter.

    Of course a power meter on your bike is better, but that's $1K or more.
  •  +1 on trainer road.  I just started using about it over the last 2 weeks as i read about it in another EN forum.  Once you set your FTP by way of their test rides, it makes it makes doing the EN workouts more effective IMO.   Makes it easy to see your workout visually.  Also gives you information on other power number so you begin to get a feel for what these mean before you make the investment in a power meter.

  •  Kate...I agree with everything that has been said...and would add that if your are ready to try power then go ahead ..I especially agree with Rick and Keith...the mental investment is not as great as you think...and once the power meter is on and you are reading the output..it comes together very quickly.

    Having said that....I did my entire first year on HR alone...so it can be done...and you are already are aware of the limitations...so just work within that knowledge and you can do fine.

    This time last year...I wanted to move from HR to Power based training...but also felt I "wasn't" ready to pull the trigger on the powermeter.....I used TrainerRoad (www.trainerroad.com) which establishes a Virtual Powe curve and provides realtime training metrics/feedback...via online (which can be connected to your TV and run with video in the background...all great for indoor training)...its inexpensive and a quick/easy way into the world of power....

    ...in the spring...I ended up purchasing a PowerTap (through Rich/EN/WheelBuilder)....and love it....

    Feel free to message if you have any questions...

  •  Thank you all very much for your thoughtful feedback.  Maybe it's b/c I'm still new, but I'm really amazed by the breadth and depth of knowledge on this team -- and the open willingness to share it generously.  That being said, I've spent the last 3+ hours surfing the forums/wikis/web on the subject of power and PMs, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that I'd really enjoy using power and get a lot out of it.  And clearly from a $$ ROI, PM trumps race wheels which up until a few hours ago were at the top of my wish list... I have some research to do, but more questions to follow! thanks

  • Posted By Kate Kaufer on 16 Oct 2012 07:59 PM

     Thank you all very much for your thoughtful feedback.  Maybe it's b/c I'm still new, but I'm really amazed by the breadth and depth of knowledge on this team -- and the open willingness to share it generously.  That being said, I've spent the last 3+ hours surfing the forums/wikis/web on the subject of power and PMs, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that I'd really enjoy using power and get a lot out of it.  And clearly from a $$ ROI, PM trumps race wheels which up until a few hours ago were at the top of my wish list... I have some research to do, but more questions to follow! thanks

    YES!!!  Again, learn from my mistake.  I bought wheels before a PM..  Bad call!!



     

  • Posted By Kate Kaufer on 16 Oct 2012 07:59 PM

     Thank you all very much for your thoughtful feedback.  Maybe it's b/c I'm still new, but I'm really amazed by the breadth and depth of knowledge on this team -- and the open willingness to share it generously.  That being said, I've spent the last 3+ hours surfing the forums/wikis/web on the subject of power and PMs, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that I'd really enjoy using power and get a lot out of it.  And clearly from a $$ ROI, PM trumps race wheels which up until a few hours ago were at the top of my wish list... I have some research to do, but more questions to follow! thanks



    EN athletes are not allowed to purchase race wheels before a powermeter...it's a rule 

     

     

    Which is to say, if you're about to write a check for $$$$ for a set of wheels, every athlete in here with power will tell you that a MUCH better place to put that money would be in a powermeter. 

  • Posted By Joe Matchette on 16 Oct 2012 08:05 PM

    YES!!!  Again, learn from my mistake.  I bought wheels before a PM..  Bad call!!



     

    Caveat -- I did this "pre-EN"....I can only claim ignorance.  Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.



     

  • Kate, you've gotten some good advice here. I would add that if you don't have race wheels yet, get the powertap and wheel cover and you have a good race wheel right there.
  • Kate- lots of great advice above and I agree with all of it. Power is hugely helpful for me while training and racing. TrainerRoad is great. Coggin's book is okay. The Power Webinar is very good to help you understand the logic and background. An you can always start a new thread for us to help you figure out which would be the best Powermeter for you as the choices vary widely depending on your situation. But don't get too bogged down with how complicated it all is. Here's an intro to power course for you:

    1) get some power measuring device (TrainerRoad, Powertap, Crank based system)
    2) do an FTP test (instructions in your training plan, in the wiki, or discussed in the forums)
    3) memorize two numbers (FTP, 0.85xFTP)
    4) follow the OS training plan by doing the workouts. Most of them only use the 2 numbers on #3 above.

    That's it. When you head outside next spring and start to race, there are some other simple concepts you will learn about how to ride steady on hills and what power number you should be targeting on race day to setup a good run, but they can also be simplified as above. This is all the math and analysis most people ever need or use to have a very effective tool. There are a small subset of us power geeks in da haus that throw around terms like (WKO+, quadrant analysys, VI, TSS, blah, blah, blah) but in reality, you don't need any of that stuff to get you started. I actually have 2 engineering degrees and to be honest, I read Coggins whole book and was completely bored and learned almost nothing that is simple and practical from it.
  • It always seems like I follow my husband in the order of comments - no idea how that happens....
    OK - I'm just chiming in to add that John convinced me to train/race with power a few years ago, and I am STILL learning. It's a process and I am as technologically challenged as they come, but training with power is actually pretty easy. And as far as racing, at the very least a PM is a good tool to keep you honest and rein you in/prevent you from burning matches. Like John said, the rest of it (VI, TSS, etc, etc... ) can come later. The basics are worth the investment, though!
  • Another inexpensive option is a used wired PT. You should be able to get one for maybe $300 and its a real PT usable on trainer or road. But warning...it will make you want to get a wireless that you can hook into your GPs computer etc etc... :-)
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