HELP with VI
I simply cannot seem to ride with Low VI typically I see 1.07 to 1.1 (granted these are also mostly out bombing around ABP rides but even in my races I have not been "getting better" at it..........any pointers on how/what to practice/improve?
0
Comments
Um, maybe I've been training wrong, but isn't an ABP ride meant to be constant power, low VI?? I know Dino trains regularly with Rich who has a philosophy that every ride is a shelling, but really if you can't ride a 1.02-1.03 VI in a race then you need to just get out and practice constant power riding instead of "bombing around". I've done flat races at 1.01 and do my outdoor FTP intervals on flat courses at 1.00 regularly. I've ridden the hillly and technical IMWI loop in training with a VI as low as 1.02 and ridden the 70.3 Vegas course twice in a race at 1.02. It is possible, you just need to practice and exercise major discipline. Out of interest, can you ride a VI of 1.00 for long intervals on the trainer? If not, start there. Then move to the open road and ensure you can hit a VI of 1.00 for long intervals on flats. Once you have that nailed it is just a matter of paying attention to your power in the turns and at the bottoms and tops of hills. But look, any rides you treat as "bombing around" are by definition not practicing constant-power riding. So I suspect you need to convert more of your rides to the latter.
@Matt - I thought that riding steady was not a concern on an ABP ride. Those you go out and ride hard, and except for rest/admin/fuel breaks, you find opportunities to ride hard in an unstructured manner. Hammer it when you can, take the occasional admin break, and in the end you end up with about 85% for the ride as a whole. Practice riding steady on other rides.
WU: 20-30' @65-70%/Zone1/Easy
MS: Spend as much time @ 80-
85%/Zone3/Mod-Hard as possible. Take
short recoveries as needed (eat, drink, etc),
otherwise it's time to work! Practice riding
Steady: no power surges, stay in the
aerobars, etc.
WD: 10' Easy spin.
ABP RIDE (Always Be Pushing)
Hmmm. You are right Matt, and yet for some reason I chose to ignore that this season training for two HIM races. I was kind of thinking they did not really intend it to read that way. I don't remember if the full IM plan last year had that wording, but I don't think so.
Do you have the power webinar? I think it is in that where Rich does a great job of describing how to do the ABP rides, and that's how I've been doing them. There is also this from the wiki:
The Skill of Steady: yes, you need to spend some time developing the SKILL of how to ride Steady. I feel that much of this is riding Steady around people who are not and thereby gaining the confidence that this style of riding absolutely works. Once you have that confidence, then everything that everyone else does around you -- the wrong thing -- just makes you increasing more confident that you're riding smart while they are not. But…
Maximizing the WORK: for training purposes, mo' work done per minute of training time spent is mo' betta'!! Personally, about 95% of my riding is very much not-steady -- I have the skill, know how to use it, and can turn it on or off as I need to. But when I'm training, I want to cram as much kj, TSS, IF, VI, cadence ranges, etc into every minute of my ride. My effort is all over the place, always hard, all the time. For example, I can ride steady and average 240w, 260w Pnorm for a training ride or I can surge, drill myself, keep the watts up on downhills and generally have FUN on the bike (very important) and average 240w but with a Pnorm of 280w. 280w > 240w = I've made myself more tired = that's a good thing!!
I appreciate all the feedback...but really not much help here for me....I done the webinar...I'm a maximize work rider...tend to push alot...rarely ever below Z3...(except interval recoveries especially in max VO2 sets)....I've focused on the "pressure on the pedals" things....etc....but rarely if ever see a VI of less than 1.05...even when I believe I was riding smooth....
I don't want to obsess over it....just didn't know if there were any physcial/mental cues (like swim stroke or golf stroke mental cues) that folks key on...
I ride rolling terrain mostly not many big climbs...a few but I don't ride them regularly...I watch my power numbers...(have it set on 3s averaging)....
QUESTION...do you all try to ride specifically at the target number...ie. I set out to ride 175 watt avg....so if I'm staring at my numbers the number rarely moves +/- 5watts?
Becuase mine jumps around...and I typically worki in a range of +/-15watts I would guess....is this my issue? is this too much of a range?
Hey Joseph, I am no WSM but here's my $0.02 worth anyhow.
When I do my FTP intervalsa I almost always have a VI of 1. My last race (an HIM on a hilly course) I had a VI of 1.02.
The question is how did I get there? I have been using power for 2 years.
For me, 2 things are really important.
First, when I jump on the gas, say after braking, I am careful not to push too hard. Looking at my Joule, I see the watts come up over a 3 or 4 second period (as I use rolling 3 second display as my instantaneous watts). Looking at my files afterwards when I first started to use power I found that I was pushing hard until the target showed but if I did that, the target would overshoot. So, now if I am targeting 185 watts, I have a reasonable idea what that feels like and when jumping on the gas, I am careful not to push harder than what that number feels like. So be careful when you get on the gas after breaking or coasting etc.
Second, when riding steady, I try and keep the rolling 3 sec average within +/- 10 watts (or so). I do this again by being careful not to make big changes in how hard I am pushing. For me, this came about with practice. The period after the FTP intervals on the long ride, as well as my APB rides are all opportunities to "learn" how to ride steady and what RPE corresponds to what watts, and what heart rate that is etc.
As you can see, I take every opportunity to learn how to ride steady. The way I think about it is that the more steady I can ride, the faster I can go without needing a higher FTP.
ps I couldn't open the file (it asked me for my user name and password and I don't use that). That said I would be very happy to look at a file if that was possible.
JL---X2 post some ride files... lets take a look at them...
[QUESTION...do you all try to ride specifically at the target number...ie. I set out to ride 175 watt avg....so if I'm staring at my numbers the number rarely moves +/- 5watts?]
YES .... ON an ABP, HIM, IM , RR , or during an Interval I try to hold the target watts(within about 5% allowing for fluctuation) regardless of terrain...IMO this should only become really difficult to do on a very hilly ride , where it is absolutely necessary to get up a hill using more than 10% over target watts or spinning out in a descent causing a long coasting situation... Rolling terrain with the right gearing should be fine.... Bottom line is forcing yourself to not go over target watts uphill and not go under target watts downhill. Easy to say hard to do!
[Becuase mine jumps around...and I typically worki in a range of +/-15watts I would guess....is this my issue? is this too much of a range?]
I dont think this range is too much. Fluctuation and range is normal, its the AP or NP that is important as you know. Just keep resetting your interval every 30 min or less and work off a new number nailing your target power.
What kind of trainer do you have? I have been doing some longer rides on a cycleops and lemond trainer recently and find them much more difficult than the computrainer since it hold the power setting for you. Are you able to ride a lower VI on the trainer?
This is all valuable feedback and I will try to post a file or two...I'm sure I am understanting my target variablity ( or I wouldn't have a VI problem right)...I probably do need to be more obsessive about staying on Target....I hope to have another months worth of outdoor weekend rides...and maybe will make this my goal...
..note..I'm seem to be fine on the trainer.
[QUESTION...do you all try to ride specifically at the target number...ie. I set out to ride 175 watt avg....so if I'm staring at my numbers the number rarely moves +/- 5watts?]. In my case, yes, that's what I do. But really at a steady (but increasing over the course of the ride!) RPE I find I don't need to concentrate on the numbers too much. To br honest I'm more focused on the "lap average" AP...after 3-4 minutes into an long z3 interval it tends to settle and as long as it's in the range I'm shooting for I'm fine with it. That number shouldn't move around much for the rest of the interval. The 3s power is a bit jumpy, no question...+/- 15 watts is pretty normal and you'll still end up with a low VI if you really keep in that band. But I suspect with VIs of 1.05 and the like you are not in that band...you are surging and spiking, or coasting and zeroing out. I don't do that in a z3 interval.
Joe - I think so. But it also depends on inside or outside.... Inside I think holding +/-5watts is what you should be able to do. Outside, I think 10watts is a good target.
I would suggest changing to 1sec averaging and seeing if that helps. Yes, the number will be more 'jumpy', but I think you will find that you can hold closer to your target because it is more of a 'real-time' number.
THE ABP RIDE IS - QUITE SPECIFICALLY - A PLACE TO PRACTICE THE STEADY, LOW VI RIDE.
On another question that's come up - the amount of "bounce" that you should allow for in your wattage when trying to ride super steady depends on the averaging your computer uses. I only have a Garmin (no LYC, Joule, etc). If you set it to "watts", the bounce is greater than if you set it to "3-second average", and the bounce is attenuated further at 30-second average. On a fine timescale (say, 0.1 sec), power is stochastic about a mean because of the different parts of the cycle your legs are in. But most everyone is making 1.x revolutions per second, so a 3 second rolling average is averaging the readings taken over close to revolutions...all at differen't points in the cycle.
So that is just addressing the random noise of the measurement - the fact is you can't hold it exactly flat no matter what you do, but a 3-second average will calm down the noise to a reasonable degree. You should be able to get a feel for that "noise level" just doing self-selected power on the trainer for 5-10 minute stretches focusing on riding steady. THEN you will know what kind of power fluctuations are meaningful in terms of your legs doing something.
For my own purposes, the 1-second averaging (or "real time watts") is just too jumpy, and I almost always have one field set to 3-second averaging to use as my real time watts and one field set to "interval averaging".
All that said, I think the rules of thumb Joe mentioned of 5 and 10 watts are ambitious, but possible. I can't quite hold it that steady.
Also, if you have a Joule, Garmin, or other, you can also track VI inside an interval. Try riding watching your VI for a few intervals, and see what happens.
One way that VI is less useful is if you have longer admin/warmup/cool down time on either end of your ride. 10-15 minutes at beginning or end of easier riding/ more coasting, etc, can really snork up the VI of a total ride. In that case, better off looking at the VI of longer intervals.
As Graffeo said---+/-10 watts is what I'm looking for, so if I see any number beyond that I tell myself to stop f-ing up the ride. I can turn this on/off very well. I think part of it is being able to anticipate the hill or descent and shift gears before you think you should. This keeps you from spiking and having that +/- 35-40 watts for 10-20 seconds. My other number that I look at besides the +/- 10, is I want to see a consistent +5 watts on my PM. I've found that in addition to continually checking for the wider range, that if I can always see that +5 number then I'm being consistent. For some reason, this +5 number ends up letting me hit my goal watt for the ride/interval. I agree that trainer rides during the OS are helpful for me to know what X watts feels like (X usually being FTP or 80-85%).