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 Food for thought.  During long distance events, what happens when HR and Pace/power levels don't match?  Is that a sign that our aerobic system needs work?

Comments

  • pace/power is an input. HR is an output.

    pace/power is a measure of how hard your legs are working (ie. how hard your legs are hitting the ground/pushing on the pedals)

    HR is a measure of all the work your body is doing (how hard your heart has to work, based on all of the draws, from your legs to ventilation to heat dissipation, to concentration/focus and fighting off fatigue, etc).

    When your HR is higher at a given power/pace, it means your whole system is working harder to maintain that effort. Could be due to inadequate training (though, IMO, that's unusual), or it could be due to a poor pacing strategy (went too hard in the early phases, fatigue setting in) or it could be due to heat, poor hydration, poor nutrition, sunburn setting in, GI distress, illness, or other factors.

    It's important to pay attention to HR, because if it starts to drift up, it's a clear signal something is going south. You should not expect to just hang on to power/pace and hope for the best, as it usually doesn't work out that way.
  • Agree with Mike. I'm mostly a runner and do a lot of my running on trails. Using pace works great for me on roads. On the trails with steep hills and other obstacles, I can use "average pace" to get an idea of how I'm doing, but need to rely heavily on HR or perceived exertion as the ultimate governor on how fast I can (or should!) go.
  • I only disagree with Mike in that I think the labels are reversed. Is isn't power/pace the output? The measure of the work? H/R is the input. The number of beats to do the work is changing. The body is becoming less efficient for some reason as a result of some distress...

    just semantics, but I think the analogy is more appropriate.
  • Completely agree with both of you. But based on how we train is there a greater correlation between Zone 3+ to 5 heart rate and corresponding power pace levels? What happens when we look to go Zone 2-Zone 3. Maybe an example would clarify. Yesterday went out for an easy Zone 1 run LRP. Decided to strap on HR moniitor to take a look at what is going on. Wanted to keep heart rate in the 130-140 range as this corresponds with my Zone 1 HR. My paces according to Vdot should be 8:40 but my actual pace was 9:15-9:30, if I keep HR in Zone 1. I know it is only one session but I'm more curious from a training stand point. At this stage is my high end aerobic/anaerobic system more efficient and do i need to work on improving the aerobic system? I have a marathon this weekend in which I plan on looking at how pace and HR correlate.

  • For my marathon this weekend, I'm going to go with Vdot plus 2.5 but I'm also going to try to keep heart rate between 140 and 150 bpm. Will use HR to adjust pace. Thoughts
  •  Agree with Mike...HR is a reflection of everything goin on with your body including hydration etc....

     

    John - what would have been interesting is  seeing what your HR would have been at 8:40's....if it was say 144...then it probably still Z1/2 remember these ranges are approximations....

    So I think the key is....running various paces...establishing your personal HR range that correllates...then using both to guide or I should say manage effort.

     

    Good Luck with the M!

  • FWIW, Dr. Noaks suggested in his book that part of the reason HR climbs or drifts upward over a longer event is that sweating lowers body fluid levels and eventually plasma levels in the blood so that overall blood volume decreases. Decreased blood volume means that the heart has to beat more often to get the same amount of circulation around to the body.
    Or something like that. It made sense when I read it but now that I try and write it, it sounds suspect.
    I have seen it in every marathon that I have done though. I had always set out to hold a steady pace and ove rthe course of hours you can see my hr creep up. I like your idea of using HR as a govenor. I am going to do the same thing in a 70.3 on sunday. If I top out at 170bpm when I run a 5kTT, I dont want to be there till the very end of the 13.1.
    I practiced and hope to execute on 155bpm max for the first 1/3, then 160 for the 2nd and then to fo with what is left for the last 1/3.
    If you do run your mary with a hr limit, please let everyone know how it goes. Good luck!
  • Unchain yourself in the last 5-8 K of the race. At some point, you have to empty the tank, bank account, whatever, and holding yourself artificially in check with any metric, be it pace or HR or even RPE, become counterproductive to achieving the best possible time. Just don't save yourself to sprint the last 400 meters; that's how people kill themselves.

  • At Al Was planning on doing that the last 10k
  • John FWIW my heart rate was holding me back-no joke.

    I could never get to my pace cause my HR was just high. I have not used a HR monitor for almost three years now and my power and pace took a pretty sweet jump! I might throw on the HR monitor during the OS just to see how it is correlating with my PE and the simple answer was - yep if the workout seems hard then my heart rate was high, etc.

  • @Carl. Not really sure what to expect. Really just using it as a training exercise. Not concerned about the race, time etc. Just curious when you were using a HR was it pre EN and what kind of training were you doing?
  • Dino, the legs do the work, requiring oxygen. This results in signals for the heart to beat faster. Hence, power is input, heart rate is output.

    If heart rate were the input, then you would go faster because your heart started beating faster...
  • I have another perspective on the original question.

    In EN we're usually asked to ignore HR and just execute the power/pace. This works, for a while. Eventually the athlete either reaches a plateau, or burns out.

    Ignoring healthy normal HR response is a recipe for long term athletic disaster; the end of the annual OS cycle is littered with thrashed athletes.

    The power/pace/RPE/HR matrix is a balance; ignore one or more at your peril.
  • I hear you, Mike. Something is just twisting in my head and I have trouble looking at that way. I think I look at my business and what we consider outputs and inputs and it get twisted for me... Not saying your wrong, just feels off to me coming from a different perspective maybe.
  • John this past season I put away my HR monitors for my PT/ GPS. I could use them for the sake of collecting more information for my WKO program and Garmin Connect but I just got to the point where I learned the fitness is in the muscle.
    I can feel , by my RPE, what it is that is going on internally and may not want to look at a HR. My HRM monitor may show I'm 20 points higher than where I should be like 2 miles from the finish line . I stopped looking at the numbers because in my head the fight goes on slow down, no maintain, slow down... ha ha... Really one less thing I need to be concerned with as HR variables jump around due to lack of sleep, dehydration and heat .

    My 2 cent.
  • Posted By Dino Sarti on 24 Oct 2012 11:22 PM

    I hear you, Mike. Something is just twisting in my head and I have trouble looking at that way. I think I look at my business and what we consider outputs and inputs and it get twisted for me... Not saying your wrong, just feels off to me coming from a different perspective maybe.



    I actually see where you are coming from with your interpretation of input/output, but I agree with Mike that HR is ultimately an output.  I think of it this way - power/pace is a primary metric where you are going at X mph (on the bike) or min/mile (running).  Over the course of something like a marathon (just to relate this to the OP), that pace can remain the same, but the HR changes due to dehydration, fatigue and other factors.  So, early in the marathon, you give it an input of, say, 8 min/miles - there is a black box of physiological factors, and the output is, say, 150 bpm for a HR.  Later on in the marathon, as fatigue sets in, if you want to maintain that same 8 min/mile pace, the black box of physiological factors has different contents, and now the resulting HR for that same 8 min/mile pace is 160 bpm.  I don't know if that helps or not.  

    @Al - sprinting to the end.  I used to do that, but recently decided to stop.  Strong finish is great, but I've been finding out that you are quite correct, literally, in that it is how people die.  

    To Bill's point about ignoring HR - I tend to agree that if you ignore it completely, it can spell disaster.  One of the ways people determine their recovery state is observing their resting HR in the morning.  Over time, one gets to notice a pattern of recovered vs not recovered from the previous workout.  In one case, I know of someone who could tell from their daily readings that 2 weeks after IMLP, their HR was still off, and he knew he wasn't fully recovered, and as a result, knew he wasn't ready to go back to the same workload of stressful workouts.  

    That being said, I've tended to ignore HR a bit during the EN hill or threshold workouts, and too have seen great gains.  But I still check in every so often to make sure my HR isn't wonky.  I think it's a case where paying attention to pace during a training run is good to allow pushing yourself beyond what you might otherwise, but paying attention to something like HR during a rest interval, or a warm up, or a cool down, is good to ensure that your body is adequately absorbing and handling the stress you are placing on it.  At least, that is what I've found.

     

     

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