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The "Vets OS Advice for the Noobs" Thread

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  • Chris,

    I had ITBS issues too during my last IM train-up (everytime I hit mile 17).  I invested a lot of time on the foam roller and picked up these (PATTstrap.com).  I ran with them for all of my long runs and during the race and didn't have an issue.  Could have just been in my head, but you may want to check them out.

  • @ Geroge ... adding miles wthout a purpose, especially during the OS, won't get you faster, just more tired. If you are doing a half marathon hack, or something, it makes sense, but otherwise, there's no need for volume for volume's sake.

  •  Al, The Shamrock Half Marathon is not until March, so, my purpose for adding the miles was to compensate for running only 2 days a week if I skip the Sat run.  So, how did you get 3 runs a week without back to back runs and have 2 rest days/week in the OS? 

  •  Another question...the Bike power bike test written is #1-5 min VO2 then #2-20 FTP.  Rich's video implies the 20' FTP then 5' VO2. Since the video was done the night before a race I presume to correct sequence is the written plan?

  • Posted By George Jordan on 28 Oct 2012 09:45 PM

     Al, The Shamrock Half Marathon is not until March, so, my purpose for adding the miles was to compensate for running only 2 days a week if I skip the Sat run.  So, how did you get 3 runs a week without back to back runs and have 2 rest days/week in the OS? 



    My simple answer is: if there is at least 24 hours between workouts, I guess that counts as a "day" off. Here's a typical Mid-OS week (about 10 weeks in) from last year:

    • Mon - FTP Intervals on the trainer, 75 minutes
    • Tues - AM, swim 50 minutes; PM, run on treadmill for an hour, doing VO2 intervals
    • Wed - I work 24 hour shifts, so during that time, no training workouts. This day, I went to the weightroom for 30 minutes before work. ?"Day Off"
    • Thurs - Run 7 miles/54 minutes @ HMP/MP
    • Fri - AM Swim 54 minutes, PM 30 minutes on the trainer attempting VO2 intervals - only did 1/2 the workout ... oops!
    • Sat - another workday, preceeded by 6.5 mi/53 minutes on the track doing an 800/1600/2400 set with equal distance between TP efforts. Then 26 hours until the next workout on
    • Sun - Swim 55 minutes in the AM (SAUs here, our thing together), 3 hour/50 mile steady state ride IF for whole ride of 0.78.

     

    As to the correct way to do the 20 min power test on the bike, as written in the plan is correct. "5/10/20I saw Rich's video, and he was a bit confusing, yes

     

  •  Thank you Al.

  •  So, for these upcoming 30/30s...  I remember last year I struggled mentally because it would take me just about 30 seconds to get my HR to the appropriate zone.  Is it ok that I just go as hard as I can for 30 seconds?  

  • @ Julia - yes.  Your HR will always time lag your actual work effort.

  • My #1 all time piece of advice for anyone who has bought a training plan, hired a coach, or joined a team is to buy into the program that you just paid or are paying money for. There are a lot of training plans that will get you across the finish line of your given race but the easiest way to sabotage any training plan is to ignore the coaches (the people you hired and are paying money to tell you the best way to cross the finish line) and start following advise from other websites, athletes, or coaches. A local tri coach calls people like this Google Athletes and it fits.

    That's not to say that you should blindly follow any training plan but the real value in joining the EN team is the access to the collective knowledge. Yes, RnP know a TON about tri's an how to get athletes trained up and ready for their 'A' race but there are some brilliant people on this team and that's not counting the WSM's. Use the forums and reach out to the community with questions on the plan or anything else. If there isn't already a thread that answers your question then start a new one.

    However, don't go looking to another website on the best bike workout to raise FTP. Don't go to a non-EN local athlete on how to run faster. You are paying to be here so give the program a chance.
  • I just have to post this for all of the new members of our team who use HR vs. Power on the bike.

    Don't be overwhelmed or intimidated by the numbers from those using power. If you use the HR zones from the test, with the associated speed and cadence, you can get just as good a workout in and come out of the OS in great shape.

    Yes, Power gives you better feedback than HR, but hard work pays off and you can get all you can handle using just the HR.

  •  Ok, salty vets...I got a question about bricking.  I was under the impression that RnP's opinion on bricking workouts isn't really ideal and/or recommended.  But in my first 2 weeks of my very first OS, I see that there have been 2 occasions (today being one of them) where the 2nd workout of the day gives me the option to brick the run, albeit for a little bit less time than the recommended overall time.  So my question is this:  Separate the 2 workouts and brick only when necessary or time of day is a factor?   

  • The brick option is meant not for improving your ability to run off the bike, but for those who are strapped for time, and can't squeeze two separate workouts into their day. It's not ideal in terms of the training plan, but better than not running @ all that day. Because of the added physical toll of a brick, it's shorter than the separate run option. Coaches wrote a blog entry about this, but it has not been put into the wiki that I can find.

  •  Thanks for clarifying, Al - this is helpful!

  • Wanted to revive this thread momentarily to ask a question from those who have gone through an OS:
    What should we be feeling like at this point, 5 weeks into the OS?

    Should we be feeling like most workouts are bringing us to the edge?
    Should we still be feeling like some workouts are on the easier side because we haven't built up enough fatigue?
    Should we be feeling like certain workouts are taxing, while others are not?
    Should we be feeling like we are ~80% taxed?

    I realize there's probably no one answer for everyone, but I'm curious if there is any sort of quantifiable RPE metric that can help us gauge - especially from those who have blown up in an OS and have also come through the other side with no issues, as those people have a view from both sides of the fence.

    Personally, I am feeling like I am recovering perfectly fine from the weekday workouts, and that they aren't producing any concerning long-term fatigue. The weekend workouts are more taxing on me due to the bike/run combo on Saturday, followed up by the interval run on Sunday. Monday has been a much needed rest day, but I've felt ready to go on Tuesday.

    Thanks!
  • @ Ryan, not sure how to answer most of your Q's about % of WKOs that are taxing. This is my 3rd OS and in both previous OSs I was caught off guard by fatigue. Coming from a marathon background I thought I understood fatigue and what it felt like.... but I was wrong. Fatigue from lots of run volume is easy to identify and avoid if you pay attention.

    Fatigue from a steady diet of FT tnd FTP intervals is sneaky. One day your like ' Wow, I feel great.... I might even do some extra stuff cause I'm not feeling the burn yet'. Then, all of a sudden you wake up tired, you're feeling cranky, can't get your watts up. Kinda like what Billbo said: "..feeling like not enough jam getting spread too thin on a piece of toast" (or something like that). It's like getting hit from behind - all at once, not slow like a freight train coming. More like a lightning bolt.

    For me, I've come to realize I need to watch many metrics in order to stay aware of the lil' basterd with the big club.
    I check my resting HR most days watching for bumps of more than 3-4 bpm for more than 2 days.
    My recovery HR and the delta in the 2 minutes post run (Garmin does that and I love it). For me, a recovery HR between 102 and 109 is good; a delta of > -50 is good.
    Sleep patterns - waking at night is OK as long as I fall back to sleep right away. If I toss and turn it is a sure sign I am heading for trouble.
    Mental attitude - If I stop caring or get cranky something is wrong. I want to be 'happy boy' all the time.
    Needing too much high fat or sugary stuff is another fuzzy one where I know I am running low and need to re-evaluate some down time.

  • @ Ryan, It sounds like to me you are executing the OS correctly. By week 5 in my past 2 OS I felt as though I could push harder however the in house rule was suggested do not over achieve digging a hole for yourself.

    I'm going into my 3rd OS in January and don't recall when you test yourself again to see what gains you have built but 6 weeks is long enough for a retest. The test will be coming so hang tough. When you get your new numbers you will feel like it's week 1 again.
  • Thanks, Steve - although each person is different, hearing what others' warning signs are is helpful because I can start to pay attention to things that I haven't necessarily paid attention to before as signs of over-fatigue and what-not. Especially when considering that previous signs of overdoing it were with a completely different type of training, so it stands to reason that the warning signs may differ.

    @David - excellent, thanks! I do definitely feel like I could push harder, but I take that as a sign of increasing fitness, and will take advantage of the relative lower intensity (and faster recovery) it brings, until we test again. And yes, I fear the repeat of a week 1 feel image
  • @Ryan - I struggle with this concept of training to a prescribed load sometimes, and believe it or not, I am helped by this steady re-discussion of "not over-achieving in training".

    Jack Daniels the VDOT coach himself, indicated that one should test (in his eyes, a 5k race), then set a training load - he gave percentage of volume for lsd (long slow distance) vs. threshold, interval, and repetition paces, but it was all running.  He then wrote that athletes should live within that training load for six weeks, and retest.  (I feel like I've read this somewhere else recently...)   He warned against training too fast for a zone (hurts recovery) and training too slow for a zone (insufficient training effect).  Want to train faster?  He says, race (e.g. test) faster, and then you can train faster.

    It's clear that moderation pays dividends in the long run.  At best, a minor injury requires a week of sharply reduced training (fitness lost), a week of easing back in, and a week of getting back to where you were.  It can take two weeks for an athlete to regain fitness for every week of forced detraining.  Joe Friel advocates that consistency - the ability to train day after day, week after week, year after year, is the number one determinant of race performance.

    So why do I still find myself seeing just how much I can do in a workout?  Why do I still try to "win" in my daily training?  Can't tell you, but the goals for the coming week are to train with discipline:

    - To do the training in the intermediate plan at my set intensities, no more, no less, and no more

    - To roll and stretch every day, including minor functional strength work on Sunday and Thursday with the objective of maintaining body-balance and range-of-motion

    - To get to bed a half-hour sooner by cutting out dead time in the evenings so I get an additional three hours of sleep over the course of a week.

     

    I think it takes a disciplined athlete to not try to over-achieve in training.  I'm still working on having that discipline.

    I'll let you know how it goes.

     

     

     

  • Felt good to go to bed without that little bit of apprehension over the next day's workout... ;-)
  • @Russell - well thought out and written! Those are good goals for any serious triathlete to adopt!
    • I agree with David my inside watts however are about 20 watts lower then outside. 250 vs 270.
    • If your trying to lose weight in the OS from my past two years experience I stayed the same or even gained a couple but come the 1/2 iron and long course plans the weight started coming off.
    • Remember to run and ride at your tested numbers!! Overachieving will set you up for an injury!!
    • Eat clean, train smart, and listen to your body. You will learn what this pain is versus this pain.
    • Most of all have fun and remember this is a game!!!
  • Does anyone from the Vets of OS have advice ?
    Just going out for my Sunday run!
    My Saturday bike was disappointing. I chose to stop after 1 hour. My leg muscles were feeling fatigue, more on the ITB. My work out was: MS: 2 x 8' (2') @ 95-100%/Zone4/Hard. MS2: 2 x 15' (2') @ 80-85%/Zone3/Mod-Hard.
    I completed WU: + 1x8’(2’) then cut back to 2x4’(2’) then 1x15’ and called it a win. From everything I read in the wiki and viewed on the videos I think this was the smart choice. I just did not have it in me, which is unusual.
    Conclusion: muscles were extremely tight I chose to bike smart and stop. Needed rest and possible a day of stretching.
    Any advice from the Vets of OS!
    Thank you!

  •  I survived my first week of OS!

     

    My question is this.  I was used to long (slow) workouts so this intensity stuff is new to me and I look forward to gaining some speed.  However, I used to feel good about the volume of calories burned on the weekend between 2-3,000.  These numbers are way less in the OS and I am thinking I need to adjust my eating habits.  I have lost a lot of weight doing tris, and my body composition has totally changed.  I don't want to go forward in speed and backwards on the weight department.

    Do you guys adjust? Or is this only paranoid me?

    Thanks for any advice on what you guys do ....

     

    Cristina

  •  I survived my first week of OS!

     

    My question is this.  I was used to long (slow) workouts so this intensity stuff is new to me and I look forward to gaining some speed.  However, I used to feel good about the volume of calories burned on the weekend between 2-3,000.  These numbers are way less in the OS and I am thinking I need to adjust my eating habits.  I have lost a lot of weight doing tris, and my body composition has totally changed.  I don't want to go forward in speed and backwards on the weight department.

    Do you guys adjust? Or is this only paranoid me?

    Thanks for any advice on what you guys do ....

     

    Cristina

  • Posted By Yvette Metz on 13 Jan 2013 07:54 AM

    Does anyone from the Vets of OS have advice ?

    Just going out for my Sunday run!

    My Saturday bike was disappointing. I chose to stop after 1 hour. My leg muscles were feeling fatigue, more on the ITB. My work out was: MS: 2 x 8' (2') @ 95-100%/Zone4/Hard. MS2: 2 x 15' (2') @ 80-85%/Zone3/Mod-Hard.

    I completed WU: + 1x8’(2’) then cut back to 2x4’(2’) then 1x15’ and called it a win. From everything I read in the wiki and viewed on the videos I think this was the smart choice. I just did not have it in me, which is unusual.

    Conclusion: muscles were extremely tight I chose to bike smart and stop. Needed rest and possible a day of stretching.

    Any advice from the Vets of OS!

    Thank you!



    Some days you just don't have it. That's fine and on those days if you do what you did then you not only made the right call, but actually got more work done than most people who will dial z4 back to z3, etc.

    That said, if it is your first OS, don't discount the fact that the intensity of these short workouts may be more than you're used to. In other words, it may feel like you "just don't have it" that day, but really it is just a freakin' hard workout. If that is the case, do what you need to do to get it done. That is the hard work, and it makes you strong and fast and gives you big PBs in the spring and summer!

    Cheers, Matt

    p.s. I am assuming of course that you tested recently and your zones are correctly set.

  • Posted By Cristina Ramirez on 13 Jan 2013 08:25 AM

     However, I used to feel good about the volume of calories burned on the weekend between 2-3,000.  These numbers are way less in the OS and I am thinking I need to adjust my eating habits.  I have lost a lot of weight doing tris, and my body composition has totally changed.  I don't want to go forward in speed and backwards on the weight department.

    Do you guys adjust?

    Having gone from 205 to <140lb due to triathlon and diet I monitor calories VERY closely (track in TrainingPeaks). I do find that in the OS I eat less then the in-season where I'm doing 5+ hours of riding plus a brick every weekend. <u>But it is not a ton less...because my appetite is generally not as high. In the in-season I have actually found that the monster workouts generate a much greater appetitie than is warranted based onthe calories that are burned, and I seem to gain about 3-4 lb (some probably muscle from swimming, to be fair).

    My suggestion is to monitor your calories in and out and your weight and make small adjustments accordingly. I also suggest you not try to "save" calories by failing to fuel workouts and recovery. I'm a big fan of nutrient timing, fueling all of my workouts via pre-and post-workout food, etc. So don't go into freakout mode and start starving yourself!!

  • For calorie monitoring, I use a free app called "LoseIt!" that provides you with a caloric "budget" for each day based on your weight loss goals.  You just put your foods into it and it tallies them up.  You also enter any exercise you've done and it gives you additional "credit" for the calories burned during workouts.  I also try to be very mindful of diet quality and the ratio of carbs, proteins and fats.  "Racing Weight" by Matt Fitzgerald is a good reference in this department.

  • @ Yvette - Smart call.  As Matt indicated, some days you just don't have it, and it is best to not dig yourself into a hole.  But as Matt also said, these EN OS workouts ARE hard, and take some getting use to, both physically and mentally.  Just keep doing your best each day, make sure you rest on the rest days, and you will get faster and smarter.  The smarter part is really becoming even more aware of how hard you can push yourself, and for how long you can maintain that hard effort.  Knowing that pays big dividends on race day.

    @ Christina - I'm no dietician, but I can tell you that I have to eat plenty during the OS to make sure I don't lose weight. You'll burn plenty of calories during and after an OS workout because of the intensity.    I'm 165 lbs right now (was 220 before I got serious about running and doing tris a few years ago) and I race IM @ 160-161, so I'm pretty close to my race weight. I like to be about 163 coming out of the OS and heading into race season.  I don't use an app to track my calories or weight, but I do weight myself every morning so I have a constant reminder of how I'm doing.  That daily data point is what works for me.

  • Thank you, Thank you,Thank you Matt, Excellent point on the numbers,yes I did test and checked my numbers. I must have missed the fact that if you complete the workout but in shorter sets it is still difficult. You are correct , I am not accustom to this EN style of workouts. Lot to learn, but loving it!

    Hi Bruce, "these EN OS workouts ARE hard, and take some getting use to, both physically " you can say that again. I think this has been my problem, wondering what is wrong with me... It's the new EN style of training. I need to let it settle in and keep focused on how my body is reacting. Thank you very much!

    To all our OS Vets, Thank you for sharing your wisdom!
  •  Thank you Matt.

     

    I have never tracked calories but am going to try it.  Absouletly guilty of skimping on fueling during workouts to "save" the calories.  I know its counterproductive but STILL do it.  crazy. I am trying to avoid freakout mode and eat appropriately.

    Thanks again

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