Slimmer Doesn't Always Mean Fitter

Linda Patch

Good article in The NYT:

Running coach, Tom Fleming, a former elite runner who won the New York City Marathon twice, in 1973 and 1975, said that he always tells his competitive athletes “that the perfect weight is the weight you are the day you P.B. in your event,” referring to the time you achieve your personal best — or fastest — finish.

“Your body will tell you” your perfect weight, he said, and when you are there, “you will feel fast, race fast.”

If that's a good rule of thumb, these few extra lbs I have on tell me just the opposite. Time to shed them now. I know that feeling, and I'd like to have it again.

Coach Patrick

I think someone mentioned Matt Fitzgerald's book saying roughly 8-10% more than race weight is an okay "off season" weight. For me that would mean an additional 15lbs, and I can't see that being a good thing.  I think 5lbs is okay. Now that I am close to my goal weight of 175, I only weight myself every 3 days, and if I am closer to 180 than 175, I get back on the "paying attention to my eating" wagon...

Scott Alexander

I read "Racing Weight" by Matt Fitzgerald. Yes, 8% for offseason weight gain is the limit he said.

He doesn't introduce anything groundbreaking, but adds another way to eat (tables, graphs, suggestions, etc) to the endurance athlete. My thought going into the book would be how he would TELL us how to choose a good race weight, but it's mostly a personal choice on where you want to be.
One of the chapters enforces the EN methodology of hard work mixed in with 'base' training.

I also like how he addresses endurance athletes, including running, cycling, swimming, rowers, triathletes, etc. He doesn't just address one specific type of athlete (forcing us to come to our own conclusions for our type-triathletes).

I'd suggest it as a read if you've got the time.

Coach Rich

I don't know many people who've been able to get themselves to a race weight at which they were borderline too thin, as defined by poor health, poor performance, etc. In my experience, you can want it all you want, do all the work you want, but at some point habits, lifestyle, personal choices tend to put the brakes on us before we get Le Chicken thin....thank dog.

Lightest I got in the tri game was 153lb, right before IMWI'02. I think I raced at 154-155lb. "Good" training weight for me is about 163-165lb, which will eventually work it's way down to 160lb. Tough to get it down to 158lb. Not sure I'll able to get it under 158lb, I don't think I have the self-control that I had back then.

And, yes, I can tell you about all kinds of performance and other differences that happen in that relatively narrow 158-165lb range above. It's definitely the difference between JV and Varsity, for me personally. Sub 155 would be All-American territory for me

Fisher Mark

I typically have a hard time keeping weight on when I'm doing IM training.  I work extra hard to NOT drop pounds (you know tuff stuff like a bowl of ice cream before bed).  I have always wondered if I should just let it drop and see how I feel.  Everyone around me starts hollering that I look way too skinny,  so I keep eating more.....  normally I'm around 135 to 137.   Through the OS I was at 133-134.  I will eventually get to around 131 or 2 for race day, but could easily drop to 128, I'm just afraid to.    I'd like to figure out how to test this without buggering my training......I'm 5'10" and weighted 128 in high school about a million years ago. ...yea I know, Mr. Punyverse 

ht001

I'm with you, Mark. I feel like I'm constantly eating. Partly to maintain weight, but more so as to maintain energy. Where we differ, though, is that it sounds like you're wondering if you'd see performance gains with still less weight, whereas I often wonder if I'd be better off with a little more weight. A lot of the women that beat me in races have more mass than I do. Anyway, I think I'm going with the "your body will tell you approach," from this article, and letting it be at that. I like that. I've been at a stable weight for all of OS. During training for my last IM I tried to pack on 5 more lbs. I only made it to 4, but even if I had made it to 5 I don't think that would have swung me either way performance wise. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd be interested to see different thoughts on either consideration.

How does your energy level correlate to your weight?

Mr. Punyverse is kind of a funny name! Watch out or you might hear that out on course in SG...

Dave Tallo

Posted By Scott Alexander on 03 Feb 2010 10:25 AM

I read "Racing Weight" by Matt Fitzgerald. Yes, 8% for offseason weight gain is the limit he said.



He doesn't introduce anything groundbreaking, but adds another way to eat (tables, graphs, suggestions, etc) to the endurance athlete. My thought going into the book would be how he would TELL us how to choose a good race weight, but it's mostly a personal choice on where you want to be.

One of the chapters enforces the EN methodology of hard work mixed in with 'base' training.



I also like how he addresses endurance athletes, including running, cycling, swimming, rowers, triathletes, etc. He doesn't just address one specific type of athlete (forcing us to come to our own conclusions for our type-triathletes).



I'd suggest it as a read if you've got the time.

Thanks for the precis, Scott.  I've been meaning to ask if anyone has read his book.   And considering his advice lets me pack on a few more pounds,  I'm down what whatever he's saying! 

 

 

 

 

gilliatt

@Rich speaking of the JV to Varsity, the article your wrote with that title from your crucible days that was one of the best articles I've ever read.

Kevin Walter

 I'm not sure I would shell out the $$ for his book. It doesn't really add anything that isn't available through other forums, online, etc. Mostly just repackaged thoughts from others. If you are totally new to the whole game then it might be okay, but if you have read a few sports nutrition books then likely you have already read everything he has to say. Like others have said, he doesn't really get into honing into a target race weight (and how to get there most effectively) which I suspect is the topic most are interested in.

penlynwilson

I did have a client who had the metabolism of a hummingbird and kept losing weight while training for his IM (he needed to eat 7000+ calories/day to MAINTAIN). He kept getting injuries, we think because of his low weight. He also didn't like to eat and only wanted to consume supplements and manufactured food. He was one of my toughest clients. I finally got him eating more real food. But, we also incorporated a supplement that had 4000 calories per serving (multiple scoops). That allowed us to meet his caloric requirements when he didn't want or couldn't get the food in on a particular day. I get referrals from him and they tell me that he tells them "she's the only person who could get me to maintain my weight." LOL!

IMHO if you think you may need more weight, than try to put it on in a healthy way - dried fruits, nuts, nut butters, etc. You won't know how it impacts your performance unless you try.

irahelp

 You guys make me sick, I have the hardest time to loose one pound. I wish I could give away 15 pds of muscle. It slows me down so bad! I can't break 15% body fat to save my life!

Coach Rich

Posted By stephen chappell on 16 Nov 2011 08:58 PM

 You guys make me sick, I have the hardest time to loose one pound. I wish I could give away 15 pds of muscle. It slows me down so bad! I can't break 15% body fat to save my life!

You need a method. Read this. It works.

A Practical Strategy for Improving Body Composition

jhbinsc

I also think Fitzgerald's book is a little too generous in allowable weight gain out of racing season. Gaining 8% means losing 8% right when you're trying to add fitness. IMHO caloric deficit and increased fitness are not compatible.

My lightest last year was 151, raced IMC about 153 and got up to 159 a month after IMC. Trying to stay 154-155 until closer to IM training then I only have a few lbs to drop and my energy doesn't flag right before IM training when I need to be rested and ready not starved and weak.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Mark Baumli on 03 Feb 2010 10:46 AM

I typically have a hard time keeping weight on when I'm doing IM training.  I work extra hard to NOT drop pounds (you know tuff stuff like a bowl of ice cream before bed).  I have always wondered if I should just let it drop and see how I feel.  Everyone around me starts hollering that I look way too skinny,  so I keep eating more.....  normally I'm around 135 to 137.   Through the OS I was at 133-134.  I will eventually get to around 131 or 2 for race day, but could easily drop to 128, I'm just afraid to.    I'd like to figure out how to test this without buggering my training......I'm 5'10" and weighted 128 in high school about a million years ago. ...yea I know, Mr. Punyverse 

Wow, are we the same person ? I'm currently 5'10" and 140 lbs, but I think I've gained a significant amount of muscle mass just from doing triathlons. Used to be much skinnier in high school as well...

From my own anecdotal observations, I do agree that low weight doesn't always correlate with fitness. Coach P has a good 30-40 lbs on me, but he's certainly much much fitter than I'll ever be.  I remember running a 5k a while back on a very hilly course, and the winner was this 175 lbs guy who also won the (just as hilly) 10k race, back to back! 

Paul Hough

I liked Racing Weight and have read many other books. I especially liked the discussion on the correct body type for different sports. Regardless, I can gain weight easily and have never been at a weight where I thought if I lost more it would impact performance negatively. My experience has always been that weight loss = higher performance, no exceptions. But as Rich noted...the closer I get to what I think the ideal weight is, the harder it is to lose more...to the point that it becomes impossible.

irahelp

If I got to 140-160pds, I would be a bag of bones! I have a body fat percent of 14% and is considered excellent for a 47 year old. My goal would be to get to 180. That would give me a 10% body fat. Some people I see , whom have 6% body fat , or less don't look heathy . They look so much older and look some what brittle! It may be cause they are strictly vega!

Keith Wick

Personally, I've given up with body comp during the OS. It just doesn't work for me and would require too much mental energy over the course of my season to focus on this. Being my 5th OS, I know that my weight will maintain or go up, but within a month of adding volume I will easily drop 10 of the 15 I've gained. The next 5-8 lbs. then comes off a little more gradually as the race approaches. During the cold, dark winter food makes me happy and adds fat to keep my ass warm on those sub freezing runs in Dec, Jan, Feb, etc. It seems to work for every mammal I see up here in the Northeast, so why fight nature.

Coach Rich

There's a lot of speed gains to be made between 14% BF and 6%. The simple facts are:

• As triathletes, most of with a focus on long course triathlon, we are burning an insane number of calories per day. Maybe not so much now in the OS but certainly later in the year.
• In my experience (that is, burning said calories but not getting as lean as you would expect), 90% of it is an exercise in logging calories taken in, logging calories burned, and creating a deficit between the two every day. But if you're not logging your stuff it's VERY easy to eat a hidden 400-500 calories per day and wonder why you're not getting leaner. In short, you can improve a thing unless you start to measure a thing.
• The last 10%, or whatever you want to call it that happens when you're very, very lean, or get stuck at a weight, etc, is a bit more difficult to manage.

In short, the many great discussions we had on this topic this summer have made Patrick and I identify body compsition as a 4th sport -- doesn't make sense to create so much stuff around the SBR question if we're not also creating systems to help you improve body composition. You only need to stand at an IM finishline to see that being lean is big part of being a fast endurance athlete and, as I said, there's a big range between "civilian" good weight and "OMG, do you have cancer!"

Unknown

If you look at the common metric we measure on the bike, W/Kg, you can increase it by increasing the numerator or dropping the denominator (or both).  Dropping unneeded kilos will improve your power, but too much will start dropping both.  It is also felt that decreasing your body mass (presumably fat) you increase your running pace (percent to percent).  

However, what is the end game?  Fitzgerald may not give you the ultimate formula to find "your number" because that is a very complex point of absolute mass, muscle mass, fat percentage, water composition, etc.  He does give trends and patterns of what elite athletes are and ranges to target (even our coaches do the same: "The gaps are intentional!  Where did the perception that 150 beats per minute had a Zone1 effect but 152...").  Each person's "ideal" is going to be different and Fitzgerald even says lighter is not always better if it effects performance.  The laws of diminish returns are in effect.

As for the offseason, I think that a little slide is good.  You can't go hard all year, every year.  You need some downtime.  A little slide in the offseason is fine to recover.  Fitzgerald says 8%, for you it may be 6 or may be 10, especially if you know you can get rid of it.  The early season has always been the time when people have advocated concentrating on dropping weight, but as I'm learning in my first OS, the "early season" in EN is not the same as the real world.  There is very little slow burn time where shaving calories won't effect your workout much.  These workouts require caloric intake and my body, for the first year in a while, has been slow to respond to shedding my offseason (well-enjoyed) weight gain, but it is happening, just slower.  The fitness however, I'm loving!