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Ultra Training Advice

 Hi Team,

My buddy is trying to talk me into doing a 50 miler in June and I was hoping to learn a little more about Ultra training before I get talked into it.  I know there are a few ultra runners in the Haus, so please share anything you might want to with me.  I am most interested in if there is an "EN" style of training for a 50 miler.  From what I have read "time on your feet" seem to be the theme, not exactly the run faster and shorter for the time crunched athlete.  It would be especially hard to break that news to my wife and 17 months old.  Anyway, here is a basic week that I was thinking about trying (something none EN style that I was putting together.  I added some biking because I like biking and was thinking about doing a Olympic distance Tri during the taper for the 50 miler (2 weeks out).  Would love to hear any thoughts about it:

 

Su: 3-6 Hour run (18-30 miles)

M : 2-3 hour run (12-18 miles)

Tu: Rest

Wed: 45min bike (some FTP or Z3 work), 1 hour run (easy).

Th: 2 hour run (EN style long run, FTP and Z2-3 work)

F: a easy run/ cross training with 30min of a sprinting sport

Sa: 1.5-2 hour bike ride (FTP and Z3 work), 1 hour run

 

The range for the long run is what I will build to throughout the race prep phase. I am currently in the Nov  OS and think that I will probably move into the Ultra race prep sometime in Feb.  During the OS I will probably extend the Wed to 1.5 hours and Sunday run to 2 as the OS go on.  Should I cut back on the duration of the long run? I have read that you should get in 2-3 30 milers, but since I am into not running more than 2.5 hours for my Ironman training I am happy to take advice on how to keep Ultra training to a low volume.

Thanks in advance.

Wei

Comments

  • If you have a good running base already, I think your training schedule looks more than sufficient. If your schedule permits, you may want to consider lengthening Monday's run a little (16-25 depending on what week you are in) as well as shortening Thursday's run. I am not a fan of big volume across the whole week if you are good about cross training. Personally, I run 3 days per week no matter what. If I am training for an ultra I like to do 2 back to back long runs if I can, mixing in some brisk walking. I like to do this on trails if possible because this is just easier on my knees/hips. The other day of the week I will do either speed/interval work at a track for about 30-60 minutes or a tempo run for an hour or so.

    Also, remember that you will need to be flexible with your workouts and listen to your body because sometimes riding a bike is no fun if your legs or sore from your running that week. The reverse is also true, you may need to adjust your runs depending on how hard you worked on the bike. But if you get those long back-to-back runs in you will be fine. There is a book called "Relentless Forward Progress" that discusses a lot of Ultra training and is a great reference. Still includes more volume than I think is necessary, but provides a lot of information if you want something to use as a guide.
  • Hi Rob,
    Thanks for your thoughts and recommendation! I will take a look at the books.
    When you said "If you have a good running base already", what would you consider a good running base before I start training for it? 25-30 miles a week? BTW, I have heard that the back to back long run is really hard on the body, and if you are new to ultra you might want to limit how often you do it. Do you think it would be better if I did it every other week? I guess a lot of this is pretty individualized and I will just have to see as I go?
    By the way, if my plan is just to have a good time and finish my first 50 miler, does this seem like an over kill?
    Thanks again for your thoughts.
    Wei
  • That schedule does seem like overkill if you just want to finish. But as long as you are able to avoid injury (and you are still having fun), better to finish feeling great and loving the event. It also would be appropriate if you are preparing for other tri's. You could see how hard it is and adjust as you go.

    I consider a good running base being able to do a 1/2 marathon very easily and being able to finish (not necessarily racing) a marathon without problems. I think doing 25-30 miles a week should be fine. As you increase the volume (just like with any marathon or IM schedule) your body feels it, but then it settles in and gets used to it. I think the back-to-backs allow you to decrease total running volume over the week, which is what I like and seems to fit best with some other EN work. I do not find the B2B too bad myself as long as I am not pushing the pace and take walking breaks (depending on where I am running I may walk the uphills or set my watch to walk for a few minutes every 20-25 minutes of running). I do concentrate on recovery with compression wear, rollers, massage around the days of my long, back to back runs. Doing an EASY bike, like just 60 minutes spinning or a swim helps me recover the day after the long runs.
  • Thanks again for all of your thoughts, Rob.
    I was just wondering, if the schedule seems like an overkill, what would you consider an solid none overkill schedule for someone who just want to finish their first 50 miler? It will be great if I could get an idea of what that would be, so I can fall somewhere in the middle of the 2 schedule. With a 1.5 year old and a wife that think I am still in my "off" years from another Ironman, it will probably be good for me to keep a nice balance in between going all out and doing the minimum possible. Obviously I will lean closer to the overkill side if time permits...
    I think the hardest part is to get away for 4-6 hours on a long run. But there is probably not way around it, right?
  • Eveyone's schedule has to be individualized based on family/work obligations. The best thing about ultra training is that I think it is more flexible than other kinds of training. Given that I don't know your schedule, I will try to make some modifications to the schedule you initially presented, trying to cut the volume somewhat. Here goes:

    Su: 3-5 Hour run (18-30 miles)
    M : 2-4 hour run (15-25 miles)
    Tu: 60min bike (easy spinning)
    Wed: Rest
    Th: 1-2 hours of running (may want to consider speed or interval work one week, then a tempo run the next week)
    F: 60 (or more) of biking with some Z2/Z3 work
    Sa: Rest

    Some notes on the above:
    - I strongly believe back to back runs give the most bang for your buck and reduces your overall training time. Depending on your speed, I do not think you ever need to go over 5 hours or 30 miles (whichever is shorter for you)
    - To me the most important rest day is the day before your long run(s). I also think getting the legs moving in some fashion is helpful the day after.
    - as you dial up the mileage/training time as race day gets closer, I usually add some running into the other training days. For example, if after my hour of easy biking, if my legs feel okay, I might do a mile or 2 at marathon pace. And after the harder bike day, if I feel okay I might do a half hour or so of running then.
    - You could also add some swimming or easy running in there on the rest day that is not the day prior to your long runs.

    Keep in mind, I'm no expert. I am in an "off" year for Ironman myself and, for me, ultra training is much more unstructured and flexible. I have done a 50 and plan to do another next March. Hope to use it as a training run and do my first 100-miler in April. I will be using something similar to the above schedule. To me the goal of all of this is to train your body to feel like you could run forever, regardless of how tired you are.
  •  With your family obligations, is it possible to include them?  Some ideas are taking your child in a stroller for your warmup or cool down.  Maybe your wife can ride a bike along side you.  Maybe you can run to meet them for a lunch in another town.

    Another effective run schedule is 3 runs in 2 days by breaking your long runs into 3 segments instead of 2 with the first one being the longest.  Morning run of 10-15 miles, followed by an evening run of 6-10.  Then the next day doing another run of 8-12.   

    The biggest thing I think for your training is what kind of race have you taken on?   Is the 50 miler on a trail or road?  If the run is on a trail, then you will need a whole different skill set than road.  With the trail you will have to keep your eyes on the trail being alert for hidden roots, rocks and other things that will ride up out of nowhere to make you trip.  Depending on the terrain, you want want to incorporate mountain or hill training.  More importantly, descending skills because of the eccentric loading of the muscles.  If the 50 miles is on road, you need to train your body for that kind of pounding.

    Just some quick thoughts.

  • Hi Wei - 2x on Relentless Forward Progress - Here's my 1x experience - if it's helpful. I used the 70 mile/week plan as a guide but I was probably closer to 60 miles. My goal was a 50 mile road Ultra this October with a time cut off of 11 hours. I'm not fast and long runs (marathon distance) is hard on the legs. So, I really focused on running - starting in June by modifying my HIM plan (no IM this year) with a longer Thursday run (1.5 hours) and bike on Saturday and run on Sunday (10-14 miles). After last HIM in mid-August, I hung up my bike and only ran. Knowing that time on the legs would be crucial, the weekend back-to-back runs were key. Relentless forward progress only calls for one 30 miler, which I did as a 50K trail race/run in mid-September (painful after only running on roads but way fun). I also found that after the Saturday/Sunday training, the Tuesday run of 6-10 miles was impossible and I needed more recovery time - so Tuesday was generally only a 3 mile run. It would have been nice to do some speedwork but it was all I could do to just finish the distances prescribed in the plan.

    Full compression tights absolutely as soon as possible after you run may be your best friend! Absolutely worth every cent.

    Also, as the run is in June, have you thought of holding off on the Olympic tri and focus that after you recover from the Ultra? There will be lots of summer left!
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