Struggling with FT Intervals After VO2Max Block
Hi Folks,
I would appreciate your thoughts and wise counsel on the following, as I am facing the same situation as last year.
Finished the VO2max block, and as you know, I took a week easy to recover from built up fatigue in the OS. See my "Over A Cliff" post in this forum for that full story. Started back up this week, and felt rested and ready to go. I did not, however, feel ready to do the bike test. I could intuit that jumping from the short VO2 workouts directly to 2x20 would not work well for me Add to that that I'm holding my current FTP, but not rising above it for sure. I'm cool with that because it's a pretty high/solid number for me, and I don't expect much movement at this juncture.
So I skipped ahead to next week's workouts to get back into the long FT groove before trying a test. AGAIN this year I can't hold the longer intervals after that stinkin' VO2max block. I could before the VO2max work. I was crusing along hitting all the duration and at the proper %. Now I am struggling to hold any duration on the FT reps. On Tues, 3x10 turned into 2x10; 1x8. Today, 2x15 turned into 2x8--that's ALL I could muster. My husband, who decided to jump into the VO2max block with me is experiencing the same thing.
What's up with this? Any insights? It's now two years in a row.I almost feel like I have to start back to the early weeks of the OS and build that endurance back again. I don't get it.
TIA!
LP
Comments
Linda not sure I have any insights. But I had the same experienc last year and it took me a couple of months to get back to where I had been. I remember talking about this last year. Anyway, after that I said I would never do another block of only 30/30's. This year I am in the power clinic and we maintain our ftp intervals on the sat ride. And have longer vo2 intervals. These seem to suit me better and I am still able to maintain the ftp intervals at the prescribed watts on the weekend. You said you did the power clinic twice last year. Did you loose any off your ftp intervals when you were doing the power clinic? I know I have a personel vendetta against the 30/30's but I honestly think they hurt me. I know there are so many variables that may not be true but still I won't do them anymore. Unless it is in conjunction with longer intervals like the power clinic.
@ Todd--now I remember that discussion last year. Will look it up. Thanks. To answer your question, yes the same thing happened to my FT intervals last year. Supposed to up in the watts, could barely hold the same number from before the VO2 block for any duration.
@Nemo--I don't like the fact that now I have to build up again. I have had no boost in FT, and I CAN'T hold the 2x15. Can't. It's not mental because I am into it, want to do it, am not stressing during the workout and wasting energy. It just isn't there--which is not the point of doing the VO2max work. OTOH, I was making nice progress and could feel myself getting stronger and building FT before the block. I should have just stayed with the regular FT intervals, it seems. 30/30s are not likely to be on my radar anytime soon.
Somewhere in the forums long ago or in WKO discussions, there is the point made about workouts from as far back as a month ago impacting current work. Is there something about the V02 max block that affects the CTL differently than just FT intervals? More deep muscle fatigue? I don't know, just thinking aloud.
Interesting.... To describe it--it feels like lack of muscle strength, and not being to handle it breathing wise, like something lost aerobically. I sure don't know either.
Linda,
The only reason that I can't hold "regular" FTP intervals is fatigue. Pure and simple.
Despite your stand-down, you might still be carrying a fatigue hangover from the VO2 max work. My personal RX would be either more time off or easy recovery-type spinning.
I'm thinking back to your experience last year with power hack VO2X2; this stuff may simply be too much for you. As a January OS guy I know these are coming down the pike; I have a decision to make; take the risk or hedge the bet? I may poll the Boomer group and see how we have fared collectively with these workouts. I don't have to re-invent the aging wheel.
Keep us posted, please.
@Colleen--interesting question...so I went back and looked at WKO+. I was holding the weekend intervals just fine until 1/16--that workout went OK, but the numbers were lower than they had been throughout the OS. 1/23 was when I had to cut it to 2x8 and walk away from the workout. Took that week easy, and here I am today.
@Bill--gawd damn it! Looks like I did it again! I know it must just be additional fatigue. Now I have to regroup--again. You already know what I'm going to tell you about that block.
Looks like it's boiling down to fatigue. Pisses me off because I was going through that OS just fine, thank you. Did not catch myself early enough in that block.
"Looks like fatigue". That being said, should the approach be the same/different for the baby-boomers. I know Al T. would say it should be, but if the VO2 block shells the rest of your OS? And with all the cumulative fatigue, is a 2 week transition before "race prep" enough?
Linda, what were your WKO+ numbers (CTL, TSB, etc.)? I tend to be really conservative with my TSB. When I notice that I'm getting close to -20 on the bike, I back off and either skip a ride or make it easier. I'm probably leaving some watts on the table (so to speak), but I haven't gotten injured or really burnt out either.
Linda you started me thinking back to why we do 30/30's.
RnP's analogy ceiling is bumping against the roof, need to raise the roof so ceiling has room you move up.
You said you were making steady progress, if your progress was starting to plateau it would imply your ceiling is starting to bump up aganst your roof, but if it was not starting to plateau then maybe you would be better off leaving out the VO2max work untl you see your progress slowing down. (Obviously RnP cannot put out the plans like that, but for someone like you that knows what they're doing tweaking the plan might be a good thing.
I've being playing with the 30/30's making them 1/1's or 2/2's which I think has helped the transition back to normal threshold work.
I'm with Bill on the fatigue business. The cause of the fatigue isnot always your workout's it can come from other things I notice I have to bump stuff around to account for plane journeys etc which can completely mess up the workous in the following couple of days. I'm sure there's plenty of other things that could be contributing to your fatigue.
Robert
@Linda,
I was just thinking that maybe you might be better off, alternating 2 weeks of VO2max with 2 weeks of threshold work, rather than the single big 6 week block of VO2max work.
Robert
A little more grist for the mill: I was feeling sparky during Thursday's 2x10@ftp and wound up drilling along at 120% for a good 5 minutes during the second 10 minute interval. VO2 max territory. Today, 2 days later, my bike workout was a real struggle. Hard to get out the door, hard to hold ftp; I had to really whip myself to finish, even struggling to hold the usually-easy 85% 2x15. This was the first time I've truly hated life during this OS.
My take: too much time in Z5 when I had no business being there. My recovery can't keep up with this high intensity. Z4 is plenty for this old fart.
P.S. It didn't help that it was 25 degrees and blowing 25-35 with snow flurries. Then my chain broke! A tough day on the Island.
@Robert--you are right. I do know how to tinker with the plans, and should have. I followed blindly, but I won't in the future--so that's a good outcome of this blip. The allure of the 30/30s at the time they came into the schedule is that they are something different. The FT gets monotonous as hell, as you know. But you have such a good point--it's where I was making progress, and still had room to improve. I could feel it, and I knew it. Thanks for calling that out. Very helpful. Quite sure the 5/20 test would have told me that!
@Bill--oh dear gawd, I can't believe you were outside! That said, I hear you loud and clear on the impact of overkill downstream. I have to say, that I'm almost glad this happened to me again. This time, with the help of everyone here, I am really dialing this in and clarifying my limitations even more. I am "that much" closer to avoiding doing this again. I hope.
@ ;Coleen--looks like the TSB was -27 the week I had to walk away from the workout. Imagine how cooked I was when I was -40 during IM training. Not going there again! Need to monitor this more closely. I mean, the data is there...why not use it.
Duh.
LP -
I'd love to see a pic / screenshot of your PMC for the OS so we can see what the delta is like. I agree that building up your FTP and losing it sucks, but when you do the math on the FTP interval duration on tues/thurs vs VO2, you are doing more time but I don't think the TSS is that different. IOW, a pre-VO2 block might have 2x15 @ FTP on Tuesday and 2 x 12 @ FTP on Thursday, but in the VO2 phase you'll max out at 5 x (5 x 30/30s) or 12.5' of work on Tuesday and again on Thursday. So you go from 54' of FTP work in Threshold phase to 25' of VO2 work. According to my PMC, the actual CTL/ATL number DROPPED during the VO2 phase as I couldn't sit on lots of 85% after the VO2 stuff like I could in the FTP phases...returning to FTP has been mentally tough, but that's about it. Let's dig deeper and maybe get a pic of your PMC? My latest is here, started VO around 1/6, and despite run for haiti, see how my TSB has risen like it's on viagra.
[edit : also, how have you felt on the runs? IOW is this a bike only problem? could run move to IP work have contributed to current fatigued state?]
what about changing up the order, i think patrick is right about the rest of the work...its the wed run that leaves me begging on thursday and by saturday (add a swim on friday for me), i could not t do all the intervals either. They are mentally tough -the 30/30 work is hard but not as mentally tough, what about changing the order to get the intervals out of the way on tuesday- that is my strongest day.???? or does that defeat the purpose.
UGH!!!! Just posted reply and it got wiped out due to operator error!
Thanks P for checking back in. I meant to post last week that I don't think my PMC is reflective of my training since I, um, didn't load any of the runs. 20 lashes, I know. Some were done on the treadmill, and I just got lazy, which I won't do again. Handy to have proper data, isn't it?
That said, no doubt the VO2max bike and IP runs just caught up with me. I was tooling along nicely, and that dug a hole that was too deep for me. What I have done is modify the Int OS plan for the past 2.5 weeks. 3x10 became 2x10, and the weekend has been FT riding time on the CP TT course we'll ride at the Expo. It's fun and different--although it's only '23 at FT total--but it feels like enough for now.
After the VOxmax block, I was struggling to hit 6-7 watts below my FT at even short intervals of 2x8. This weekend I hit FT on the TT course for the 22' ride--so I'm coming back. The past two weeks I bascially dropped all intensity in the runs, and only ran 2x week for about 45' Yup, it took that much of a slow down to crawl out, but I feel I am 85-90% recovered so it was worth it.
It looks like I am done with the OS this year, and will manage the workouts until the end of the month. This week I'll inch closer to the EN bike and run as prescribed while taking a shade off of the number of intervals--for instance, 3x10 might be 2x10 and 1x8. I'll run the workouts as written because they aren't too bad in terms of intensity.
Since I already had a slow down of a couple of weeks, should I still take a transition week before jumping into the HIM plan? I'm thinking so....
That's where I'm at. Thanks so much to everyone!
I think I just wrote the same prescription for myself and Mike Graffeo in the Power Clinic Thread.
My suspicion is that the VO2 isn't bad, it's FTP --> VO2 Block + IP running...too much. I think future iterations of the VO2 block should _stagger_ the bike and run work, not double it up (don't tell Rich I am already re-writing next years plans!). I say yes to the transition, as you are still "working" and will need a reset. Thanks for being so candid and forthcoming with how the plans are / aren't working...it only makes us stronger!!!
Patrick
You're welcome. I also realize not everyone would be open to such discussion, so it is noticed and much appreciated. And, yes, stagger!
This is a long winded way of saying YES the thought of staggering the run and bike work during that block would be somewhat helpful...I think that in addition to looking at staggering, it would have been helpful for me when I was doing those FTP + addtl hard efforts + runs to maybe understand what the benefit was of doing all of that in one session. I never did quite get my head around it. But maybe that's cuz I was blinded by feelings of inadequacy at my inability to hold on to the work.
Thanks, Linda, for bringing up the topic, and P for re-looking at the plans.
P
I think Olivia nailed it. Yes, the IP intervals were really tough in this block, but I had forgotten about the VO2max segments after the FT work on Sat rides. I asked Rich about it in the macro thread, but it was the "wrong place to ask" he told me and I never did get around to reposting.
My question was the huge jump in intensity there compared to any other OS weekend ride in previous years. I held up for exactly 1.5 weeks of that Sat. ride (bailed in that second week) and am still coming back. RnP, could you revisit that and 'splain?. Think about it, 2x12 @ ;FT then 3 (3x4) AT Z5. That's 36' at VO2max , or close to it. Was that really supposed to be that much VO2max work??? I still wonder.
A couple of thoughts here:
I have only been able to feel competant in the power clinic bike VO2 work by adopting two strategies. First, I've told myself that, for four weeks, I am just a biker - weeks 2-5 of the clinic. Bricks, MP/HMP for long runs have been dropped, swimming is minimal. Second, my weekend rides were "as written" for the first two weeks, while indoors, but once I took them outside, I was more into an ABP mode, instead of throwing in bursts of VO2 or FTP work. E.g, today I did the Sat ride for this week (weather and work made today a better day than the weekend). I did 48 miles at an IF of 0.75, spending most of the time cruising at 70-80% of FTP. The mental and physical juice to push a hard interval third workout in a week just wasn't there.
It will be good to re visit this question at the end of each athlete's season, to correlate strategies of training with actual race performance. Also, age and gender issues may be important. Testosterone helps with many things, including recovery. Women and older men just don't have as much of it as 20/30 something males.
I appreciate all the OF comments and perspectives.
I was doing well in the OS intermediate plan and plugging along fairly succcessfully during the first four weeks of the Power Clinic. I was also hitting every run with success as well and was proud of myself.
However, during week five of the PC I could not hold the six minute intervals. Then this week I crumbled on the final PC test and decided it was time to back off.
I followed Al’s previous recommendation on taking a full day off or so, and then ran an easy five miles today. Tomorrow is a swim day and on Saturday I plan on doing a couple of 2 x 10 FTP and 2 x 10 85%ers.
I hope to step back into week 17 of the OS plan next week after this rest and recovery.
The lesson for me is to measure and determine when I am reaching the edge of the training abyss, which I miss judged a bit this time around.
And I need to remind myself that I am pushing 60, not 30.
Al - I've been impressed at your persistence and consistency in training. The power clinic work is NOT EASY. I've been cutting way back on my usual swimming and running to be able to hit all the bike work, and I'm just ending week 4. When it comes time to test, I'm going to learn from everyone's example, and make sure I get about 44 hours of rest before the test - Sunday morning workout and then nothing until the test.
The good news is: your definition/perception of what is hard and fatiguing has been ratched up several notches, and shifting back to the end of the OS, things will seem almost easy for you I bet. A quote from the coaches: "The bike in the Ironman itself will feel easier than any of the workouts we have you do." That's where we're headed.
Thanks EN!
This discussion from last year is quite meaningful to me. I'll see how much applies to me in a few weeks when the VO2Max block is done. I am now in the Nov OS. I had NO bump in my FTP during the LT phase but now the Sat 95-100 portions are much easier to do. I've gone off the reservation a bit with some longer rides but I am monitoring my TSB.
Again, thanks for sharing. It helps us newbie Boomers.
Rubin