I couldn't figure out how to make a TR workout of my own fastest enough so I just did a free ride and tried to remember the workout. I also tried different gearing and cadence goals for each set of 3 gutbusters.
One question though, relating to overcooking. WE've talked a lot about the danger of overcooking the run intervals, and I assume the same would apply to the z3/4 bike intervals, but is there such a thing as overcooking the V02 max intervals? Reason I ask is that my training plan only gave me a number (191), not a range to hit for the V)2 max, but I was averaging 220-240, b/c I always thought V)2 max was about going balls to the wall?
. As to the VO2 intervals, several comments. As always, the key determinant of whether you are working too hard can only be discovered by the impact on downstream workouts. Also, given what we are training our muscles for, there is no value in going either higher than 120% of FTP, nor longer than 15-18 minutes of total work time, nor longer than 2-3 minutes of interval time for the "VO2 max" intervals.
It has been a rough last few weeks. 2 weeks ago my Computrainer stopped working and what I thought was a blown fuse. Looks like my load generator is fried. I hop on my new fluid trainer this morning and half way into the VO2 set I get a flat. It can only get better.
@ Al - thank you! I had not seen that particular wiki post. Very helpful. And just wanted to say that I appreciate your frequent advice and support as I settle into EN. thanks again.
I have a question regarding overcooking VO2max intervals. Going above that level of effort puts you into the anaerobic zone and while it fatigues you more and all that (which I agree with, btw) does it build up your tolerance for the red zone? Does it raise your VO2max or does it just reinforce your inner headbanger for those 15% grades and town line sprints?
I know those red zone efforts aren't what we as triathletes are looking to develop unless we're specializing in the sprint tri distances but do they help your VO2 max if you can keep from burning yourself out?
Got the VO2s done this morning in the hotel fitness room. Luckily got one of 2 stationary bikes in a crowded gym.
Of course, I was working w/out my PM, so that made it a challenge. The bike had a power reading that was way off -- on level 20 (of 20), it showed I was putting out over 370W, which felt slightly easier than my target VO2 wattage of 290.
At any rate, I got the workout in and wasn't too far off from the work I would have put in back home w/ the trainer / PM. Normally, I have 100% "sweat coverage" of my shirt after a bike wko. This morning, I'd peg the coverage ratio at ~85%. so I'll take it. Travel day tomorrow, so glad a rest day is scheduled and will be back in my saddle on Saturday morning.
Awesome, Mike. Do you ever get a look or comment from someone at a gym when you have a bike machine dialed up all the way to the top? I especially like it when the person snarking on me is also reading a magazine while they pedal at 35 rpm...
@ Peter. Hasn't happened so far, though I did chuckle (to myself) at the guy on the recombinant bike browsing the NYTimes thinking there's no way I could concentrate on anything but remembering the time to start/stop my intervals. i envy those of you who can watch tv/movies during trainer sessions.
@ Peter - I think the point of the test was to see how accurate the 120% estimate was. So if you tested higher than 120%, I think Coach P in another thread said to go with the higher number (of course, provided you are able to sustain it - if you find throughout the OS that it is too taxing, no shame in dropping down).
@Kate - Al already answered, but just to add - VO2max is not actually balls to the walls. Check out the graph here about 2/3 of the way down here - VO2max is z5 out of a total of seven zones. That whole article is really good, actually.
@ Peter (again) RE: overcooking and aerobic/anaerobic - I don't know if it builds your tolerance for going into the red zone. It probably does. I'm imagine that indoor track cyclists who put out about 2kW during their sprints have a much higher tolerance for screaming muscles than we do. However, my understanding is that going above the zone doesn't increase VO2max gains any more than if you were @ VO2max. In fact, you could make the argument that since you overcook yourself, you get less effect because you could otherwise have saved that effort for more work right @ the VO2max. Looking at that graph I cited above, the other thing about going past your VO2max is that your recovery in hampered.
@ Everyone looking for an equivalent TR ride: the EN OS rides in TR will not be specific as to things like the VO2max intervals - as some people may be at 115% FTP, others may be at 125%. Also, everyone's warmup is different - so the OS rides that will be in TR are very simply just counters for intervals. So if your set is, for example, 2 x 10' @ FTP, you'll just see 2 x 10' segments @ 100%. If the set is 5 x (4 x 30/30), you'll see 5 repeated sets of 4 sets of 30" segments @ 100%, and it is up to you to know what your target is. In other words, the intensity that TR shows you is not going to be precise for you, especially in the VO2max sets. NOTE - I'd imagine this might be a complication for those using a CT, since it'll mean TR isn't setting the CT properly for each individual person. Not sure of the solution there.
Once I saw the thought behind it, it certainly made it a lot easier/faster for me to create the workouts in the interim while we wait for the OS workouts to be published.
Tonights scheduled of 5 x (4 x 45/45) was altered to 5 x (4 x 1/1). I had already been doing 1/1 instead of 30/30's, keeping the same amount of ON time (15'). So, in seeing that tonights was 15' of ON time again in total, just with increased duration each billat - I figured I'd just add another sets worth, going to 20', and stay at the 1/1, as that seems to be working rather well for me.
Bike workout done. this one was hard , and legs are tired. did the standard warmup (3' at .98, 12' at .84) then the 4x3x45/45, then 12' at 0.85. 60' total. might try to sneak in 30' at the pool tomorrow (Shhhh!).
I really wish i would have read the last several posts prior to completing today's bike workout. My current VO2 is 255 but that number felt pretty easy when i did today's workout of MS: 5 x (4 x 45/45) @ Vo2/255. I did the 45 seconds on, at about 285-290 and it was challenging, but not crazy hard and i don't feel overcooked now that i'm done. I did review the wiki article that Al posted and i get that it's less about what you do duing any one workout and more about the big picture in terms of your ability to complete future workouts successfully. At the same time, i have seen where Rich has stated mo' work is mo' betta so I am struggling a bit to know when is it OK to push hard and when is it better to just work the plan and let the plan do its job.
@Mark, you'll get answers from both sides of this debate, I'll give you my take. I pay RnP to give me a basic plan and set me up in this virtual environment to interact with a bunch of smart, focused people. They (RnP) tell me that I'm not special, sit down, shut up, and just do X amount of work. Therefore, I do X work and call it a day. Almost every thread about "newbie" advice or "what to watch out for in the OS" is filled with really smart folks that have done an OS or two telling other folks not to overcook the assigned work. I figure that if everyone says something, there may be something to it.
Specifically for this issue, overcooking VO2 intervals is easy because they are way too short to really cause problems during any given workout. However, they may start to build fatigue and the inability to hit future workouts, whether its tomorrow, next week, next month, etc. The only issue is that you won't know until its too late, when you are forced to miss work at some future point.
For me, when I really believe workouts are too easy, I retest. That takes away any subjectivity in my mind. As with all my 'advice', I caveat this all with everyone is different, YMMV, and good luck with whichever way you decide to go.
Yes I'm still alive,not 100% yet but have to content with a new house move while probably only at 70%. I'll be back on Saturday even if it's just for an 85% workout.
@Mark ; - I'd echo what Roy said stick to the plan as much as possible. On good days I'll reach a little but don't hammer myself in to the ground. This might be 1.01, 1.02 but not 1.08. I've done my share of dumb things in my number of OS'es. One of the greatest being a 3X8 or 10' instead of 2X in week 3 or 4. Our very own John Stark whipped up a frenze and i was feeling good in my first OS. This little episode cost me 2-3 days rest as I not only did a do an extra set but I also over achieve the intervals.
Basically if you over achieve make sure it's not affecting down stream workouts. Coach Rich has a good article in the Wiki on overachieving as it has words like 'risk taking' which can be useful under the right circumstances.
@Roy, thank you for the reality check. I have been with EN since October and i have learned a lot along the way, but without question the #1 takeaway for me is how much i don't know and have yet to learn. You're right, it's easy to push the pace, but then why pay the $'s for a plan that i'm not even following. Doesn't make sense especially given we are only in week 5 and it's a long OS that will only get harder. For now i'm going stick to my #'s, retest in 3 weeks and hopefully earn the right to push harder. Thanks much!
@Gordon, point taken. I'm all in with EN and that means sticking to the plan and guidance 100%, regardless of how i feel within one workout....It's about the big picture. Thank you for the advice and the real life example (by the way....3X vs. 2X is massively overachieving. i wasn't being nearly that ambitious)
I just completed Thursday's ride. I am back on schedule. The final set was a bit taxing due to overcooking the earlier ones. I know better, but I had a hard time keeping a steady number this morning. I kept letting off too much and falling below my target watts. Accordingly, I overcompensated and ended up riding above my target. I always prefer to do a little more rather than a little less.
Did my 60/60 yesterday. I think I overextended myself a bit on the first few intervals, so I had a hard time keeping the watts up on the last few ones. Oops! I think it's really important to pay attention to how hard you're doing these intervals, especially the first few because your legs are relatively fresh and it won't feel as hard. Hopefully my slight overachievement on those few won't hurt me too much later this week...
Saturday ride done. 58 minutes at 0.86 with 2x15 and 1x5 all on 0.97. Feeling that fatigue in the legs. Going to focus on more sleep at night, like I've seen a couple other peeps in here talking about.
Looking forward to a good day of college football! Keep after it everyone.
I got the ride in really early this morning. I hit the paces but may start to focus on some other things like speed since I am a bit afraid that my HR is not the best indicator. The ride felt pretty good though, esp given I didn't get a ton of sleep last night.
Oh. Golly. Must fall down now. I definitely need more sleep. Lesson learned. Make that lessons learned because I found that I did not read the testing instructions properly last month. While reviewing it this morning while waking up I realized that I've plugged in 255w as my FTP but that was the wattage I was able to achieve during the test. I should have plugged in .95x255, or 242. No wonder it has been pretty hard to keep up with these workout targets. I'm such an idiot. (See a pattern developing here?)
There's the ride I did this morning on TR. I tried to put it together with the custom ride functionality but made a few errors. The pattern is mostly correct but the timing is off and it does not correctly divide up the intervals. Oh well, for not reading any sort of tutorial and just winging it while I watched football last night it wasn't that bad. Give it a try.
I also cannot get my HR monitor data to show up on TR. It shows up fine on the Garmin so it should make it to the TR app like the power and cadence do, right? What am I missing?
Bike workout done, std wu, 2x8' at .98, 1.0, and then 5' at .98,followed by 15' at .84. Legs felt pretty good. Could it be the speed is finally starting to enter the body? Now desperately trying to recover before I head out for the run in an hour or 2...
I also cannot get my HR monitor data to show up on TR. It shows up fine on the Garmin so it should make it to the TR app like the power and cadence do, right? What am I missing?
Comments
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/114629
I couldn't figure out how to make a TR workout of my own fastest enough so I just did a free ride and tried to remember the workout. I also tried different gearing and cadence goals for each set of 3 gutbusters.
this wiki thread on over achieving cycling intervalsKate, you may already have seen
. As to the VO2 intervals, several comments. As always, the key determinant of whether you are working too hard can only be discovered by the impact on downstream workouts. Also, given what we are training our muscles for, there is no value in going either higher than 120% of FTP, nor longer than 15-18 minutes of total work time, nor longer than 2-3 minutes of interval time for the "VO2 max" intervals.
@ Al - thank you! I had not seen that particular wiki post. Very helpful. And just wanted to say that I appreciate your frequent advice and support as I settle into EN. thanks again.
I know those red zone efforts aren't what we as triathletes are looking to develop unless we're specializing in the sprint tri distances but do they help your VO2 max if you can keep from burning yourself out?
Got the VO2s done this morning in the hotel fitness room. Luckily got one of 2 stationary bikes in a crowded gym.
Of course, I was working w/out my PM, so that made it a challenge. The bike had a power reading that was way off -- on level 20 (of 20), it showed I was putting out over 370W, which felt slightly easier than my target VO2 wattage of 290.
At any rate, I got the workout in and wasn't too far off from the work I would have put in back home w/ the trainer / PM. Normally, I have 100% "sweat coverage" of my shirt after a bike wko. This morning, I'd peg the coverage ratio at ~85%. so I'll take it. Travel day tomorrow, so glad a rest day is scheduled and will be back in my saddle on Saturday morning.
Awesome, Mike. Do you ever get a look or comment from someone at a gym when you have a bike machine dialed up all the way to the top? I especially like it when the person snarking on me is also reading a magazine while they pedal at 35 rpm...
@ Peter - I think the point of the test was to see how accurate the 120% estimate was. So if you tested higher than 120%, I think Coach P in another thread said to go with the higher number (of course, provided you are able to sustain it - if you find throughout the OS that it is too taxing, no shame in dropping down).
Bike workout done. this one was hard , and legs are tired. did the standard warmup (3' at .98, 12' at .84) then the 4x3x45/45, then 12' at 0.85. 60' total. might try to sneak in 30' at the pool tomorrow (Shhhh!).
I really wish i would have read the last several posts prior to completing today's bike workout. My current VO2 is 255 but that number felt pretty easy when i did today's workout of MS: 5 x (4 x 45/45) @ Vo2/255. I did the 45 seconds on, at about 285-290 and it was challenging, but not crazy hard and i don't feel overcooked now that i'm done. I did review the wiki article that Al posted and i get that it's less about what you do duing any one workout and more about the big picture in terms of your ability to complete future workouts successfully. At the same time, i have seen where Rich has stated mo' work is mo' betta so I am struggling a bit to know when is it OK to push hard and when is it better to just work the plan and let the plan do its job.
Any advice here would be great.
www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/115008
Specifically for this issue, overcooking VO2 intervals is easy because they are way too short to really cause problems during any given workout. However, they may start to build fatigue and the inability to hit future workouts, whether its tomorrow, next week, next month, etc. The only issue is that you won't know until its too late, when you are forced to miss work at some future point.
For me, when I really believe workouts are too easy, I retest. That takes away any subjectivity in my mind. As with all my 'advice', I caveat this all with everyone is different, YMMV, and good luck with whichever way you decide to go.
Got the bike in between 5 and 6 this morning in the dungeon with some assistance from Eminem.
Challenging - hard to get up and put out at 5AM on Th after finishing my run at 8:30PM on Wed, but the workout itself was fine.
Intervals always seem easier in retrospect.
Thanks for all your most excellent posts.
r
Yes I'm still alive,not 100% yet but have to content with a new house move while probably only at 70%. I'll be back on Saturday even if it's just for an 85% workout.
@Mark ; - I'd echo what Roy said stick to the plan as much as possible. On good days I'll reach a little but don't hammer myself in to the ground. This might be 1.01, 1.02 but not 1.08. I've done my share of dumb things in my number of OS'es. One of the greatest being a 3X8 or 10' instead of 2X in week 3 or 4. Our very own John Stark whipped up a frenze and i was feeling good in my first OS. This little episode cost me 2-3 days rest as I not only did a do an extra set but I also over achieve the intervals.
Basically if you over achieve make sure it's not affecting down stream workouts. Coach Rich has a good article in the Wiki on overachieving as it has words like 'risk taking' which can be useful under the right circumstances.
http://members.endurancenation.us/R...+Intervals
Gordon
@Gordon - glad to hear you're on the rebound - feel better.
@Roy, thank you for the reality check. I have been with EN since October and i have learned a lot along the way, but without question the #1 takeaway for me is how much i don't know and have yet to learn. You're right, it's easy to push the pace, but then why pay the $'s for a plan that i'm not even following. Doesn't make sense especially given we are only in week 5 and it's a long OS that will only get harder. For now i'm going stick to my #'s, retest in 3 weeks and hopefully earn the right to push harder. Thanks much!
@Gordon, point taken. I'm all in with EN and that means sticking to the plan and guidance 100%, regardless of how i feel within one workout....It's about the big picture. Thank you for the advice and the real life example (by the way....3X vs. 2X is massively overachieving. i wasn't being nearly that ambitious
)
PS: Glad you are feeling better!
Plan called for 5x(4x45/45) (2) but since most of my previous Ints have been 60/60's I stuck with that and did 5x(3x60/60)(2')
Also added 15' @ (0.872) - I tried to hit the 85% but anytime I looked at the TV my numbers kept drifting up. Oh well.
Total bike 1:11 @ (0.884)
Day off tomorrow but may head over to the pool for some splashing about.....
I'm back in the haus!! I have my new trainer all set up and ready to roll.
Also managed to opine on the red shorts.
= Sufferfest revolver - 16 x 1/1 @ 320watts
Total 55 min
Looking forward to a good day of college football! Keep after it everyone.
Oh. Golly. Must fall down now. I definitely need more sleep. Lesson learned. Make that lessons learned because I found that I did not read the testing instructions properly last month. While reviewing it this morning while waking up I realized that I've plugged in 255w as my FTP but that was the wattage I was able to achieve during the test. I should have plugged in .95x255, or 242. No wonder it has been pretty hard to keep up with these workout targets. I'm such an idiot. (See a pattern developing here?)
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/115958
There's the ride I did this morning on TR. I tried to put it together with the custom ride functionality but made a few errors. The pattern is mostly correct but the timing is off and it does not correctly divide up the intervals. Oh well, for not reading any sort of tutorial and just winging it while I watched football last night it wasn't that bad. Give it a try.
I also cannot get my HR monitor data to show up on TR. It shows up fine on the Garmin so it should make it to the TR app like the power and cadence do, right? What am I missing?
Bike workout done, std wu, 2x8' at .98, 1.0, and then 5' at .98,followed by 15' at .84. Legs felt pretty good. Could it be the speed is finally starting to enter the body? Now desperately trying to recover before I head out for the run in an hour or 2...
Did you pair your hrm with the TR app?