I’d be interested to receive input and high-level strategic advice about how to go about improving my Ironman swim times. Specifically, I want to:
• Achieve my swim “AG rank” to a level comparable to my bike and run. Quick review of recent IM races puts this somewhere around a 1:00 swim.
• Undertake this as a long-term, deliberate 18-24 month campaign, culminating in meeting the goal in the 2014 race season.
The parameters are:
• I would be building from a history of circa-1:06 wetsuit swims for the last number of years. (There have been some 1:08s, and other 1:03s, I think.)
• I want to keep the other bike and run pieces of my training 100% intact and unchanged.
• I can/will make the time to get this done.
• I do yearly form work with different coaches, and I think I’ve found most of the low hanging fruit.
• I think there’s pretty good muscular endurance behind the IM swims I’ve done: most of my open water RRs have been evenly split, and my pre-race litmus test workout of a 30:00 tt puts me at 1:30/100y (almost to the second!) each year for the last 4 or 5 years.
So what say you on the strategy points or options?
• Would pre outseason swim blocks add any value? My thinking here is borne from a good experience I had when I was trying to break a run plateau a few years ago, and did a pre-OS, two month run campaign that really pushed up my VDOT across a season. Because I don’t begin the OS until February, such a block would be very doable this year, and probably next year, as well.
• Is strength training the answer? I’ve always had a weak upper body,
• Would it be as simple as thowing volume at the problem? IOW, an approach where outseason gets three swims/week, inseason gets four? (Even though I have noted that I’m at a plateau, is this kind of thinking, where applying greater trianing load consistently over time, might yield the proportional gain I’m looking for? Particularly if I do it over a couple of years? I realize that there is a law of diminishing returns that kicks in at some point … is that where I am right now? )
• Is a swim strategy that essentially mimics the EN run / bike model more suitable? If I raise my ‘swim fast’ in OS by concentrating on a t-score, and build ‘swim far’ on that, does that get me to a faster IM after a few years?
I am so looking forward to responses to this Dave. What I have noticed over the past 9 years doing IM and HIM, my swim times are consistently at my PR level the years I train with a triathlon swim club then the years when I swim by myself using some sort of training plan. No explanaition why, just happens that way.
Forty years ago, I was a lousy competitive swimmer on teams with Olympic and NCAA Div 1 Champions. So I got to observe how they went about gaining their success. Apart from the obvious dyad of superior genetics (broader of beam in the upper body + whippy flexibility) and mind-boggling singlemindedness to their goals, they also seemed to embody all four of the work elements you mention:
Attention to details of stroke mechanics which seemed silly to me at the time (remember, I was 17-20 years old)
Superior upper body strength to the rest of us, not from weight lifiting, but from ...
Lots of "extra credit" miles in the pool and
Committment to always winning every lap in practice; IOW, they spent a lot of time building fast as well as far
So if I had to guess what might work on this most difficult task, I'd offer the following:
Are you willing to swim five times a week in the outseason, then four in the build periods?
Can you go for 75-90 minutes at a time?
During the outseason, are you able to join in at least 3x a week with a masters practrice which has really good swimmers doing both mileage and hard repeats?
Are you willing to drop all toys, such as fins, paddles, pull-buoy, etc, and just swim, swim, swim?
Lord knows what the weekly mileage needs to be, but I'd have to guess it's at least 15-18K.
I hear you about wanting to have an even keel over all three disciplines. "You can't win an IM on the swim, but you can lose it". In my experience, the times I've done well, I have been in the single digits in my AG swim. I've seen better cyclists and runners fail due to losing minutes (up to ten) on the swim.
As a former college swimmer, people hate me b/c I can swim a handful of times a month and @55 still go sub 1:10. My experience says that you have the fitness, but technique is likely the biggest issue, perhaps followed by speed. I would consider a block emphasizing technique and then add speed. Unlike a 12 year old who will swim 20-30k a week under the guidance of a coach, you will have to develope that form to get tot the next level.
I'm also looking forward to the responses. I started a lifting regimine that I am cont throughout the OS. We are looking at gaining a few pounds of lean muscle. However we are targeting the shoulders, lats, lower back, hips and quads. I am swimming 4x a week for a min of 90 minutes!! One day however is almost all drill/skill work. Recent film underwater still has me dropping my elbows below my wrist when tired and it appears I need to catch earlier into my hand entry.
I'm also looking forward to the responses. I started a lifting regimine that I am cont throughout the OS. We are looking at gaining a few pounds of lean muscle. However we are targeting the shoulders, lats, lower back, hips and quads. I am swimming 4x a week for a min of 90 minutes!! One day however is almost all drill/skill work. Recent film underwater still has me dropping my elbows below my wrist when tired and it appears I need to catch earlier into my hand entry.
Agree with Al you pretty much have to want it. Technique work is huge and you have to put in the laps. I returned to swimming after a 20 year layoff and have really been focusing on technique. I don't use any toys because I want to feel the water as I'm swimming. Often during sessions I'll make mid swim adjustments based on feel. As far as strenthening core , hips rotator cuff muscles all with correct posture.
Like the the other Dave and Al, a former Div I collegiate swimmer ... all my IM swims have been 52-58 min on 1 hr of swimming per week.
IMO, you need 3 things in order to make the leap you're taling about:
(1) VERY good and consistent technique that will not degrade over time, or be (overly) interrupted by the mass chaos of an IM start. It's like when you run a 10-K and are p-d that your first mile is ~ 10 min pace b/c of the chaos of walk/trot/jog/avoid that happens at the start. Same is true in IM.
(2) Muscular strength - specific to swimming - to make sure your technique doesn't break down.
(3) Aerobic engine to support (1) and (2) for probably 150% of your swim distance.
I will assume for purposes of this discusion that you have and will keep (3) intact from all of your other work.
If you are willing to swim 4-5x per week, I would suggest wkouts/key sets:
* Broken IM swim @ race pace. 30 sec or less break per 500 yds. Do this consistently and increase the length of the interval/decrease the rest ... so perhaps you start @ 30 or even 45 sec per 500 and ultimately get to 10 sec per 1000 yds or 10 secs @ half distance or simlar.
* 60 min swim flat out for distance or 3000M for time. I would alternate these bi-weekly.
* Intervals to build speed -- do a set that adds up to 4000 yds, but do it in 100 or 200 or 400 yd increments with appropriate rest, but go @ 125% of race pace. This will enable you to best manage that first 300-400 yds of the IM start and then back down into your correct group. IIRC, 60 min swim is around 1:30/100 yd pace, so you'll want to do these shorter intervals faster than that - probably 1:20 or faster per 100 yds
* One workout focused on changing paces - ascending sets/descending sets/pyramids with varying paces. I would highly suggest you do no workouts less than total IM swim distance/duration and lots of freestyle. You can add technique drills or kicking to this worjkout day if you want, but the focus needs to be on swimming a given pace for at least an hour - preferably 75 min. One of my personal favorites ... 10x 100 or 10 x 200 w/ ascending odds and descendinfg evens -- so 1, 3, 5, ets get progressively slower and 2, 4, 6, etc get progressively faster. The goal is to control yourself so that numbers 1 and 20 are the same speed/time.
Hope this helps, and happy to expand with specific set ideas.
Sorry, Dave T. I realize I didn't really answer your Qs, so let me try to do that as well:
• Would pre outseason swim blocks add any value?
IMO, yes. It will take time to develop the speed and endurance in your shoulders and upper back to do the work needed; you need to 'train to get ready to train' so to speak. The real payoff is in-season, but being able to swim for an hour with very solid technique needs to be eliminated as a potential imiter.
• Is strength training the answer? I’ve always had a weak upper body,
IMO no. Strength for swimming needs to be sport-specific. Most AG swimmers (even really fast ones) don't lift much - but do dryland with surgical tubing or swim bands or similar. That is sport specific and effective. So is core work -- it holds your technique together when you start to get tired and your hips drop or rock back and forth. Being able to hold a clean line will help you get through the water more efficiently and core strenght is an aid there.
• Would it be as simple as thowing volume at the problem?
Volume required, but you will also need speed work; swimming slow alot is like biking slow alot. It teaches you to go that speed. For < 60 min IM swim speed, you do need some level of intensity (relatively low for swimmer, but certainly more than just playing wall tag for an hour)
• Is a swim strategy that essentially mimics the EN run / bike model more suitable? If I raise my ‘swim fast’ in OS by concentrating on a t-score, and build ‘swim far’ on that, does that get me to a faster IM after a few years?
You could try this .. but see my other post above. I've seen people do it, but they tend to run into issue with muscular endurance and overall swim endurance driving the limit. Swim speed will leave you if you don't use it consistently and the recovery cost for swimming hard (at least v running and cycling) is modest.
@Dave---- I have given this a lot of thought and work since I am in a similar boat with a couple of 1:06 IM swims under my belt. Unfortunately for me my bike/run still have more room for improvement than the swim. 6 minutes seems so small but in reality that is a huge 8 seconds per 100yds. If anyone can do it you can! I'll be happy coming out of the water a couple min faster and fresher.
Pre-Season-----For you I think your real opportunity for improvement would come in the form of a pre-season swim focus. This would be the only time you may be willing to back off your bike and run and you could apply volume and intensity at the same time. I think in general we tend to underestimate how much the swim actually takes out of us... Tim B. laid out a really good plan. Maybe even a little coach work at the beginning and the end.
Strength--- Gotta say no. I came from a rock climbing background with a high upper body strength to weight ratio (capable of tons of pushups pullups etc) and dont think it did me a bit of good. Again I think Tim nailed it with swim specific muscles and like the idea of dryland workouts . Gonna add those myself.
Volume--- Of course . More is more. Its all ROI.
EN Strategy--- Love this idea and what I planned for myself going forward but keep in mind I'm still working the bike/run first and foremost. Just finishing up the 50/50 swim challenge in a couple weeks where I have been doing volume but all easy , swim , fin sets, PB , focusing on bi-lateral breathing trying to even out my stroke. Really focusing on correct technique. My plan for OS is 3 swims per week. 2000yds-45 min in duration. 1. speed --work in the form of 25's , 50's, 100's all out then with good recovery in between -think VO2. 2. Endurance-- sets 500s,1000s,2000s, minimal recovery done steady but hard- think FTP 3. Strength--- paddle sets , ankle band sets-- think big gear or hill repeats....Then I will put the far ontop of the fast during the IM build.
Dave, another thing to consider. What you really want is not just the ability to swim 2.4mi in 60 minutes, but you want some headroom. In other words, you really want to be able to swim a 55-56 minute IM swim, and then choose to swim 59-60. Doing so requires great form and strength. I'm sure you've got the resources available to you to address the form question. I tend to think that once your body position is well balanced, and you're breathing well, achieving a good streamline, and not slowing yourself down with a poor kick, then it does come down to strength.
Of course, like Tim says, it's not "how many pullups can you do" strength, but swim-specific strength. Move from the red stretch cords to the blue to whatever the next one is, practicing perfect form, and putting strength behind it. Time on a Vasa Trainer or Erg, or other swim-specific strength gizmos, can also complement here, if you have access (though stretch cords are probably sufficient). Spoke with Sheila Taormina about this last year, and her opinion was that strength behind the catch and stamina to hold that strong catch over the duration of the event is most triathletes' biggest limiter. As fatigue sets in, you lose efficiency at the catch.
So, a varied program incorporating lots of meters, including sprints, 25's, and 50's as the staple, as well as a swim-specific strength program, would be my recommendation.
God knows I should not be writing anything about swimming, but figured I can share. I am reading the swimsmooth book and they are recommeding a combination of stroke/technique development, swim training (to develop swim fitness), and open water skills training as the foundation for what you may be trying to achieve. Check out the site, if you'd like to see how they recommend training, DM me and I can copy and send you some of the information.
@carl - the issue you noted is due to you over glidding. Trying to focus on your stroke rate and it should help. There is information I can forward you as well - if you are interested.
You and I are similar swimmers, but like some others have stated there is plenty of room for improvement in other areas for me. However about a year ago I had a pretty good jump in my swimming speed due to more volume, here are some things I have picked up and think you could apply to your program.
In your out season/preseason I would suggest you try and start consistently swimming 12,000-15,000 yards a week probably on 4 swims a week. The swim coach I worked with told me that when you get above 10,000 yards a week you will start to see improvement. I know I have seen Jordan Rapp post on Slowtwitch that he swims around 20,000 yards a week when training. Look at his times and look at what you are trying to do, this would seem reasonable.
Beyond just swimming a lot of volume, I would suggest that 3 of your swims are with some type of a Master's group. If you can find a good group this will help push your pace some which will be needed to get the speed you are looking for. Hopefully the person running program can help give you some pointers on what you are doing wrong with your form and maybe help you correct it.
This 12,000-15,000 yards a week volume I would suggest you consider doing for something like Jan-March. Once April begins the weather where ever you are will probably be nicer outside and it will probably be time to shift your focus to adding more miles on the bike and the road. I would think come April you could take your volume to the 10,000-12,000 yards a week of swimming, with 10,000 being fine and just maintain or see some smaller improvements.
Go through your heavy training block to get to your "A" race. Then with about 2 months out from your "A" race pick the swimming volume back up to 15,000 yards a week. That will give you 1 month of very heavy training, but then the last month your volume in overall training should start to come down, but you can afford to keep the swimming up. Gordo Byrn wrote an article about this recently in Endurance Corner and said that it worked out very well. This should have you swimming very strong for your "A" race.
I think using all of the swim aids is fine. Paddles is a very good way to add load to your shoulders to help improve strength specifically where you need it/want it vs. going into a gym to do some lifting to try and replicate it.
Most people who are good swimmers are also good kickers, as triathletes we fall in the pretty poor range of kicking in general. I would think using fins would also be fine to help improve your kick and dorsi flexion.
I think you big keys to success are more volume and swimming with a Master's group.
You should really get Rich to weigh in on this subject, the guy swam at Emory and is probably the best person to go to on the subject, not us minions.
I have been a 60 min swimmer. Now a 64 minute swimmer.
Reasons:
Less total yearly volume since with en. But make it up on bike and run.
forgetting that going out hard to start in a race works well for me. matt a. Mentioned starting workouts as he would a race. Hard for a few hundred meters.
getting back to form basics that work for me. Long stroke. Good catch. Strength amd power all the way through including a push at the end of a stroke.
In 6 years I have gone from 1:22->1:00 IM swim. working with 1:1 coaches, drills, and toys got me to 1:08 pretty "easily". Getting from 1:08 to 1:00 took 2 years of year round (i.e. 50 weeks) of swimming with a masters team at least 2 days a week. I had 4+ month periods of 15,000SCM per week with LOTS of killing myself trying to keep up and set new PRs in 50s, 100s, 200s at almost every swim. Then 6 weeks before my IM, my swimming got very specific and I did 5 x 1000 SCM with 1:00 rest at IM Race pace way more times than i care to count.
so as others said... both volume and speed work combined with lots of hard work and consistency over time. IMO, the challenge is not to get injured or burnt out and just keep at it.
Matt, Good post and shows it can be done ! Romanticizing about the idea then actually following through with the work are wayyyyy two different things. After reading this I would think coaching is the way to go and finding one would be chore within its own right. All good stuff listed above I'm following the post too get all the input for myself !
@Tom - yes, Short Course Meters per week. I still can't hang with the real swimmers but chasing them around for the last 2 years at least got me to talk like them ;-)
@Dave - I hope my post came across right. My main point was I did it and I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. The ROI on that last 6 minutes sucks. It's not fun but I can tell that it is one of the most satisfying things I have done. If you want to do it, get to work and put the time in and you will. Who knows if it will take 3 months or 3 years, but if you keep at it, it will happen.
@Tom, I thought you weren't a land lubber anymore?! Short Course Meters.
I am only getting slower in swimming as well, but my takeaways are as follows:
* be ready to swim year round. * be ready to swim fast most of your year (at least 2x masters / group swims) * technique is critical, it will ensure you don't get injured with all the swimming. * strength around that technique (cords) is incredibly effective (see @MikeG's pointers from Sheila Taormina) * don't worry about "longer" swimming until 8-10 weeks out from your race...until then the longest I would go is like 300...your forum just suffers too much otherwise..
@Dave- If you havent already I highly recommend you watch the Tower 26 video's on youtube. Its been mentioned here recently and on ST. I think you will find it very interesting. Also a little feedback from my recent experience. I have one more week to go in the 50/50 swim challenge , but in 6 weeks I have done an average of over 10,000 yds a week with most of it being pretty easy with exception of IMCZ of course(this isnt that high an average but it is for me). The other big change was the lack of biking/running last 10 days while I was swimming. Today at masters I had a couple of the guys I usually swim side by side with looking at me like WTF is going on? The coach kept coming over and watching . I mean I was swimmig a bit faster than normal and it wasnt a very difficult class but it felt rather easy(this was the same for an 1/4 mile interval and the 200's and 100's). I really feel like my swimming fitness just bumped up a bit but I do think it was at the expense of loss in fitness on the bike and run recently confirmed with my ftp and vdot test to start my OS. I dont know if its the extra mileage or the lack of biking/running . Probably both. If your really serious about this have you considered a swim camp you could go to and swim twice a day and nothing else for a week?
@ Tim , I'm about 1/2 done the Tower 26 video, which I think are very good, I will make a decision Jan as to wheather I'm swimming this season or bagging it for a bike/run season.
THIS THREAD IS GREAT. THIS TEAM IS GREAT. YES, I KNOW I'M SHOUTING.
Seriously, I want to thank everyone for the excellent advice above - this exceeds my best expectations for material to work with. Now the challenge ahead will be to mash it up and into a nice, cohesive approach. I'll hold up my end of the bargain and sketch out my best possible plan I might follow the continuity in the thread ... and see how long it can stand up to scrutiny from you fishes!
Also on the 'to do' list will be a Wiki entry to capture the above.
@Tim, thanks for recommending the Tower26 videos. Started at 10:00 pm last night and ended way past my bedtime
Well worth listening too, but block out some time as there are 13 nine minute videos all strung together.
This guy trains a lot of triathletes of all abilities! Seems to have partnered with Matt Dixon to coach the swim portion of Matt's triathlon coaching business.
Some critical points I took away: * there is no magic pill. 75-90 minutes per session 3 X per week will make you an OK swimmer in about 2 years *consistency is key. Don't miss workouts. *technique is also critical. Learn to be taught and in perfect alignment. Missile through the water analogy. Best way to learn this is swim 10-20 minutes every time with snorkel, pull buoy and ankle straps. Big toes touching. *Ignore strokes per length metrics. Focus on stroke rate. Most triathletes swim at about 60 spm. It needs to be closer to 80-100. *Learn to breath on both sides, but breath every 2nd stroke, not bilaterally. Much more oxygen *don't do any other drills *swim fast every session. If your tired, swim a couple of 25 yard bursts *Strength training should be specific only. Swim, use bands or Vasa type equipment. Set aside 20 minutes 2 X per week. *Some coaches to follow on FB, Twitter, Blogs include Joel Fillio, Mike Collins, Paul Newsom (Swimsmooth.com), Jim Vance, Brett Sutton
Typical 90 minute once per week workout *10 minute warm up *10 minute snorkel, pull buoy, ankle strap swim *4 x 1000 pull with ankle bands **first 1K break into 4 X 250 with 20 second break in between. Effort climbs from 70/75/80/85 ** second 1K. 10 x 100 on 7 seconds rest with consistent time ** 3rd 1K 2 x500 pulling with 30 second break ** 4th 10 x 100 at max speed with 30-60 seconds break.
Anyway those were my notes - very late at night! Love to hear feedback.
@Tom You weren't supposed to see that post :-) ....... I hope you got some good stuff to help improve that swim..... I had already started a little with the ankle band before coming across those and think it will really help. ..... Ordered a snorkel today(and will use that instead of my bi-lateral breathing to even out my stroke) ..... I kinda disagree with him on no paddle work (I agree with his theory that paddles slow down stroke rate and arent needed for strength) but I think paddles force you to position your hand/arm/pull more correctly....I love his approach to breathing and fast stroke rate..... I just never understood the over used word glide, the fewer strokes per distance obsession, or the bi-lateral breathing or worse hypoxic training.... That would be like telling you to pause on every pedal stroke or to hold your breath while biking or running...
http://www.theraceclub.net/ There has been some interesting stuff from this guy as well Gary Hall at the RaceClub in the keys. Ive seen him on ST and I believe Gerry mentioned him favorably as well.
So I went to the pool today and implemented some of his ideas. I have always practiced bilateral breathing but at every event I ended up breathing every two strokes, mostly because of the elevated HR due to stress. I think it's actually a great idea to practice what I will swim anyway. I swam 25 yds right side and then 25 yds back on the left side so I was always looking at the same wall. I'm sure my stroke is a little worse, but I'll take some video with Ubersense and confirm what I need to be aware of and work on.
The faster stroke rate is hard! Not sure my current rate, but it's definitely no where near 80. I'm going to order a Finis trainer metronome to get the rate up consistently. I noticed as I got more tired, my stroke rate would drop significantly. I've always heard spl as being the most important, but I'm willing to give this a try.
I like the idea of less drills, especially the side stuff. I'm going to order the snorkel and ankle bands also. I get the alignment/ tautness issue and need to work on that.
@Tim, I swam a 1:31 last year. A 1:20 or less would be a whole lot better. Another 11 minutes on the bike, run or transition and there is my 10:15 (vs. your 10:16). That's my plan and I'm sticking to it
I just finished viewing the Tower 26 videos too. A nice summary by Tom.
I have some work to do on stroke rate. My normal stroke rate is about 38 per minute, no where near 80-100. I did try speeding it up yesterday and trying some 4 stroke breathing. It did make a difference but the 4 stroke vs 2 stroke will take some getting use to. I found it was much easier to increase my stroke rate to 44 than doing the 4 stroke breathing. I'm going to work on the stroke rate.
This past year I swam IMWI in 1:13. I'd like to get that down to 1:05 - 1:08. Maybe stroke rate will help.
I'm not clear on how stroke rate is measured, specifically the denominator. Does it include time spent turning and gliding underwater after push off? Of is it only the time spent actually stroking, more like during an open water swim?
Funny that I found this post cause I had so many similar thoughts to Dave. I began swimming in 2009 for the first time in my life. Never had a swimming lesson until then and starting a new sport at 35 was intimidating enough as it was, I'll never forget that first swim... : ) In my first HIM I swam 48 minutes. Over the next 2 years I joined a masters club and PR'd a HIM this past summer at 29 minutes. My 3 IM times range from 1:10-1:06. I know I can get to 1:00 and thanks to all of you I now have a clearer plan.
Comments
I’d be interested to receive input and high-level strategic advice about how to go about improving my Ironman swim times. Specifically, I want to:
• Achieve my swim “AG rank” to a level comparable to my bike and run. Quick review of recent IM races puts this somewhere around a 1:00 swim.
• Undertake this as a long-term, deliberate 18-24 month campaign, culminating in meeting the goal in the 2014 race season.
The parameters are:
• I would be building from a history of circa-1:06 wetsuit swims for the last number of years. (There have been some 1:08s, and other 1:03s, I think.)
• I want to keep the other bike and run pieces of my training 100% intact and unchanged.
• I can/will make the time to get this done.
• I do yearly form work with different coaches, and I think I’ve found most of the low hanging fruit.
• I think there’s pretty good muscular endurance behind the IM swims I’ve done: most of my open water RRs have been evenly split, and my pre-race litmus test workout of a 30:00 tt puts me at 1:30/100y (almost to the second!) each year for the last 4 or 5 years.
So what say you on the strategy points or options?
• Would pre outseason swim blocks add any value? My thinking here is borne from a good experience I had when I was trying to break a run plateau a few years ago, and did a pre-OS, two month run campaign that really pushed up my VDOT across a season. Because I don’t begin the OS until February, such a block would be very doable this year, and probably next year, as well.
• Is strength training the answer? I’ve always had a weak upper body,
• Would it be as simple as thowing volume at the problem? IOW, an approach where outseason gets three swims/week, inseason gets four? (Even though I have noted that I’m at a plateau, is this kind of thinking, where applying greater trianing load consistently over time, might yield the proportional gain I’m looking for? Particularly if I do it over a couple of years? I realize that there is a law of diminishing returns that kicks in at some point … is that where I am right now? )
• Is a swim strategy that essentially mimics the EN run / bike model more suitable? If I raise my ‘swim fast’ in OS by concentrating on a t-score, and build ‘swim far’ on that, does that get me to a faster IM after a few years?
I am so looking forward to responses to this Dave. What I have noticed over the past 9 years doing IM and HIM, my swim times are consistently at my PR level the years I train with a triathlon swim club then the years when I swim by myself using some sort of training plan. No explanaition why, just happens that way.
Forty years ago, I was a lousy competitive swimmer on teams with Olympic and NCAA Div 1 Champions. So I got to observe how they went about gaining their success. Apart from the obvious dyad of superior genetics (broader of beam in the upper body + whippy flexibility) and mind-boggling singlemindedness to their goals, they also seemed to embody all four of the work elements you mention:
So if I had to guess what might work on this most difficult task, I'd offer the following:
Lord knows what the weekly mileage needs to be, but I'd have to guess it's at least 15-18K.
I hear you about wanting to have an even keel over all three disciplines. "You can't win an IM on the swim, but you can lose it". In my experience, the times I've done well, I have been in the single digits in my AG swim. I've seen better cyclists and runners fail due to losing minutes (up to ten) on the swim.
I started a lifting regimine that I am cont throughout the OS. We are looking at gaining a few pounds of lean muscle. However we are targeting the shoulders, lats, lower back, hips and quads. I am swimming 4x a week for a min of 90 minutes!! One day however is almost all drill/skill work.
Recent film underwater still has me dropping my elbows below my wrist when tired and it appears I need to catch earlier into my hand entry.
I started a lifting regimine that I am cont throughout the OS. We are looking at gaining a few pounds of lean muscle. However we are targeting the shoulders, lats, lower back, hips and quads. I am swimming 4x a week for a min of 90 minutes!! One day however is almost all drill/skill work.
Recent film underwater still has me dropping my elbows below my wrist when tired and it appears I need to catch earlier into my hand entry.
Like the the other Dave and Al, a former Div I collegiate swimmer ... all my IM swims have been 52-58 min on 1 hr of swimming per week.
IMO, you need 3 things in order to make the leap you're taling about:
(1) VERY good and consistent technique that will not degrade over time, or be (overly) interrupted by the mass chaos of an IM start. It's like when you run a 10-K and are p-d that your first mile is ~ 10 min pace b/c of the chaos of walk/trot/jog/avoid that happens at the start. Same is true in IM.
(2) Muscular strength - specific to swimming - to make sure your technique doesn't break down.
(3) Aerobic engine to support (1) and (2) for probably 150% of your swim distance.
I will assume for purposes of this discusion that you have and will keep (3) intact from all of your other work.
If you are willing to swim 4-5x per week, I would suggest wkouts/key sets:
* Broken IM swim @ race pace. 30 sec or less break per 500 yds. Do this consistently and increase the length of the interval/decrease the rest ... so perhaps you start @ 30 or even 45 sec per 500 and ultimately get to 10 sec per 1000 yds or 10 secs @ half distance or simlar.
* 60 min swim flat out for distance or 3000M for time. I would alternate these bi-weekly.
* Intervals to build speed -- do a set that adds up to 4000 yds, but do it in 100 or 200 or 400 yd increments with appropriate rest, but go @ 125% of race pace. This will enable you to best manage that first 300-400 yds of the IM start and then back down into your correct group. IIRC, 60 min swim is around 1:30/100 yd pace, so you'll want to do these shorter intervals faster than that - probably 1:20 or faster per 100 yds
* One workout focused on changing paces - ascending sets/descending sets/pyramids with varying paces. I would highly suggest you do no workouts less than total IM swim distance/duration and lots of freestyle. You can add technique drills or kicking to this worjkout day if you want, but the focus needs to be on swimming a given pace for at least an hour - preferably 75 min. One of my personal favorites ... 10x 100 or 10 x 200 w/ ascending odds and descendinfg evens -- so 1, 3, 5, ets get progressively slower and 2, 4, 6, etc get progressively faster. The goal is to control yourself so that numbers 1 and 20 are the same speed/time.
Hope this helps, and happy to expand with specific set ideas.
• Would pre outseason swim blocks add any value?
IMO, yes. It will take time to develop the speed and endurance in your shoulders and upper back to do the work needed; you need to 'train to get ready to train' so to speak. The real payoff is in-season, but being able to swim for an hour with very solid technique needs to be eliminated as a potential imiter.
• Is strength training the answer? I’ve always had a weak upper body,
IMO no. Strength for swimming needs to be sport-specific. Most AG swimmers (even really fast ones) don't lift much - but do dryland with surgical tubing or swim bands or similar. That is sport specific and effective. So is core work -- it holds your technique together when you start to get tired and your hips drop or rock back and forth. Being able to hold a clean line will help you get through the water more efficiently and core strenght is an aid there.
• Would it be as simple as thowing volume at the problem?
Volume required, but you will also need speed work; swimming slow alot is like biking slow alot. It teaches you to go that speed. For < 60 min IM swim speed, you do need some level of intensity (relatively low for swimmer, but certainly more than just playing wall tag for an hour)
• Is a swim strategy that essentially mimics the EN run / bike model more suitable? If I raise my ‘swim fast’ in OS by concentrating on a t-score, and build ‘swim far’ on that, does that get me to a faster IM after a few years?
You could try this .. but see my other post above. I've seen people do it, but they tend to run into issue with muscular endurance and overall swim endurance driving the limit. Swim speed will leave you if you don't use it consistently and the recovery cost for swimming hard (at least v running and cycling) is modest.
Pre-Season-----For you I think your real opportunity for improvement would come in the form of a pre-season swim focus. This would be the only time you may be willing to back off your bike and run and you could apply volume and intensity at the same time. I think in general we tend to underestimate how much the swim actually takes out of us... Tim B. laid out a really good plan. Maybe even a little coach work at the beginning and the end.
Strength--- Gotta say no. I came from a rock climbing background with a high upper body strength to weight ratio (capable of tons of pushups pullups etc) and dont think it did me a bit of good. Again I think Tim nailed it with swim specific muscles and like the idea of dryland workouts . Gonna add those myself.
Volume--- Of course . More is more. Its all ROI.
EN Strategy--- Love this idea and what I planned for myself going forward but keep in mind I'm still working the bike/run first and foremost. Just finishing up the 50/50 swim challenge in a couple weeks where I have been doing volume but all easy , swim , fin sets, PB , focusing on bi-lateral breathing trying to even out my stroke. Really focusing on correct technique. My plan for OS is 3 swims per week. 2000yds-45 min in duration. 1. speed --work in the form of 25's , 50's, 100's all out then with good recovery in between -think VO2. 2. Endurance-- sets 500s,1000s,2000s, minimal recovery done steady but hard- think FTP 3. Strength--- paddle sets , ankle band sets-- think big gear or hill repeats....Then I will put the far ontop of the fast during the IM build.
Of course, like Tim says, it's not "how many pullups can you do" strength, but swim-specific strength. Move from the red stretch cords to the blue to whatever the next one is, practicing perfect form, and putting strength behind it. Time on a Vasa Trainer or Erg, or other swim-specific strength gizmos, can also complement here, if you have access (though stretch cords are probably sufficient). Spoke with Sheila Taormina about this last year, and her opinion was that strength behind the catch and stamina to hold that strong catch over the duration of the event is most triathletes' biggest limiter. As fatigue sets in, you lose efficiency at the catch.
So, a varied program incorporating lots of meters, including sprints, 25's, and 50's as the staple, as well as a swim-specific strength program, would be my recommendation.
@al - 40 years ago.....
@carl - the issue you noted is due to you over glidding. Trying to focus on your stroke rate and it should help. There is information I can forward you as well - if you are interested.
Dave,
You and I are similar swimmers, but like some others have stated there is plenty of room for improvement in other areas for me. However about a year ago I had a pretty good jump in my swimming speed due to more volume, here are some things I have picked up and think you could apply to your program.
In your out season/preseason I would suggest you try and start consistently swimming 12,000-15,000 yards a week probably on 4 swims a week. The swim coach I worked with told me that when you get above 10,000 yards a week you will start to see improvement. I know I have seen Jordan Rapp post on Slowtwitch that he swims around 20,000 yards a week when training. Look at his times and look at what you are trying to do, this would seem reasonable.
Beyond just swimming a lot of volume, I would suggest that 3 of your swims are with some type of a Master's group. If you can find a good group this will help push your pace some which will be needed to get the speed you are looking for. Hopefully the person running program can help give you some pointers on what you are doing wrong with your form and maybe help you correct it.
This 12,000-15,000 yards a week volume I would suggest you consider doing for something like Jan-March. Once April begins the weather where ever you are will probably be nicer outside and it will probably be time to shift your focus to adding more miles on the bike and the road. I would think come April you could take your volume to the 10,000-12,000 yards a week of swimming, with 10,000 being fine and just maintain or see some smaller improvements.
Go through your heavy training block to get to your "A" race. Then with about 2 months out from your "A" race pick the swimming volume back up to 15,000 yards a week. That will give you 1 month of very heavy training, but then the last month your volume in overall training should start to come down, but you can afford to keep the swimming up. Gordo Byrn wrote an article about this recently in Endurance Corner and said that it worked out very well. This should have you swimming very strong for your "A" race.
I think using all of the swim aids is fine. Paddles is a very good way to add load to your shoulders to help improve strength specifically where you need it/want it vs. going into a gym to do some lifting to try and replicate it.
Most people who are good swimmers are also good kickers, as triathletes we fall in the pretty poor range of kicking in general. I would think using fins would also be fine to help improve your kick and dorsi flexion.
I think you big keys to success are more volume and swimming with a Master's group.
You should really get Rich to weigh in on this subject, the guy swam at Emory and is probably the best person to go to on the subject, not us minions.
I have been a 60 min swimmer. Now a 64 minute swimmer.
Reasons:
Less total yearly volume since with en. But make it up on bike and run.
forgetting that going out hard to start in a race works well for me. matt a. Mentioned starting workouts as he would a race. Hard for a few hundred meters.
getting back to form basics that work for me. Long stroke. Good catch. Strength amd power all the way through including a push at the end of a stroke.
In 6 years I have gone from 1:22->1:00 IM swim. working with 1:1 coaches, drills, and toys got me to 1:08 pretty "easily". Getting from 1:08 to 1:00 took 2 years of year round (i.e. 50 weeks) of swimming with a masters team at least 2 days a week. I had 4+ month periods of 15,000SCM per week with LOTS of killing myself trying to keep up and set new PRs in 50s, 100s, 200s at almost every swim. Then 6 weeks before my IM, my swimming got very specific and I did 5 x 1000 SCM with 1:00 rest at IM Race pace way more times than i care to count.
so as others said... both volume and speed work combined with lots of hard work and consistency over time. IMO, the challenge is not to get injured or burnt out and just keep at it.
Short Course Meters. I swam in a 25 meter indoor pool until 2010, when the health club sold out to LA Fitness, which shut it down.
As distinguished from Short Course Yards. Both are 25, compared to the official Olympic Size Pool of 50 meters (accept no substitutes)
@Dave - I hope my post came across right. My main point was I did it and I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. The ROI on that last 6 minutes sucks. It's not fun but I can tell that it is one of the most satisfying things I have done. If you want to do it, get to work and put the time in and you will. Who knows if it will take 3 months or 3 years, but if you keep at it, it will happen.
I am only getting slower in swimming as well, but my takeaways are as follows:
* be ready to swim year round.
* be ready to swim fast most of your year (at least 2x masters / group swims)
* technique is critical, it will ensure you don't get injured with all the swimming.
* strength around that technique (cords) is incredibly effective (see @MikeG's pointers from Sheila Taormina)
* don't worry about "longer" swimming until 8-10 weeks out from your race...until then the longest I would go is like 300...your forum just suffers too much otherwise..
Thx, D
Seriously, I want to thank everyone for the excellent advice above - this exceeds my best expectations for material to work with. Now the challenge ahead will be to mash it up and into a nice, cohesive approach. I'll hold up my end of the bargain and sketch out my best possible plan I might follow the continuity in the thread ... and see how long it can stand up to scrutiny from you fishes!
Also on the 'to do' list will be a Wiki entry to capture the above.
Again, thanks all.
Well worth listening too, but block out some time as there are 13 nine minute videos all strung together.
This guy trains a lot of triathletes of all abilities! Seems to have partnered with Matt Dixon to coach the swim portion of Matt's triathlon coaching business.
Some critical points I took away:
* there is no magic pill. 75-90 minutes per session 3 X per week will make you an OK swimmer in about 2 years
*consistency is key. Don't miss workouts.
*technique is also critical. Learn to be taught and in perfect alignment. Missile through the water analogy. Best way to learn this is swim 10-20 minutes every time with snorkel, pull buoy and ankle straps. Big toes touching.
*Ignore strokes per length metrics. Focus on stroke rate. Most triathletes swim at about 60 spm. It needs to be closer to 80-100.
*Learn to breath on both sides, but breath every 2nd stroke, not bilaterally. Much more oxygen
*don't do any other drills
*swim fast every session. If your tired, swim a couple of 25 yard bursts
*Strength training should be specific only. Swim, use bands or Vasa type equipment. Set aside 20 minutes 2 X per week.
*Some coaches to follow on FB, Twitter, Blogs include Joel Fillio, Mike Collins, Paul Newsom (Swimsmooth.com), Jim Vance, Brett Sutton
Typical 90 minute once per week workout
*10 minute warm up
*10 minute snorkel, pull buoy, ankle strap swim
*4 x 1000 pull with ankle bands
**first 1K break into 4 X 250 with 20 second break in between. Effort climbs from 70/75/80/85
** second 1K. 10 x 100 on 7 seconds rest with consistent time
** 3rd 1K 2 x500 pulling with 30 second break
** 4th 10 x 100 at max speed with 30-60 seconds break.
Anyway those were my notes - very late at night! Love to hear feedback.
x2 Thanks Tim! These Tower26 vids on YouTube are very good.
Awesome Tom, I did the same as you last night, thanks for the great summary! Looking forward to implementing more of this in my swim space.
http://www.theraceclub.net/ There has been some interesting stuff from this guy as well Gary Hall at the RaceClub in the keys. Ive seen him on ST and I believe Gerry mentioned him favorably as well.
The faster stroke rate is hard! Not sure my current rate, but it's definitely no where near 80. I'm going to order a Finis trainer metronome to get the rate up consistently. I noticed as I got more tired, my stroke rate would drop significantly. I've always heard spl as being the most important, but I'm willing to give this a try.
I like the idea of less drills, especially the side stuff. I'm going to order the snorkel and ankle bands also. I get the alignment/ tautness issue and need to work on that.
@Tim, I swam a 1:31 last year. A 1:20 or less would be a whole lot better. Another 11 minutes on the bike, run or transition and there is my 10:15 (vs. your 10:16). That's my plan and I'm sticking to it
I just finished viewing the Tower 26 videos too. A nice summary by Tom.
I have some work to do on stroke rate. My normal stroke rate is about 38 per minute, no where near 80-100. I did try speeding it up yesterday and trying some 4 stroke breathing. It did make a difference but the 4 stroke vs 2 stroke will take some getting use to. I found it was much easier to increase my stroke rate to 44 than doing the 4 stroke breathing. I'm going to work on the stroke rate.
This past year I swam IMWI in 1:13. I'd like to get that down to 1:05 - 1:08. Maybe stroke rate will help.
I'm not clear on how stroke rate is measured, specifically the denominator. Does it include time spent turning and gliding underwater after push off? Of is it only the time spent actually stroking, more like during an open water swim?
Thank You!
Tower 26 Vids, been watching them:
Stroke rate study (swimsmooth Blog): http://www.feelforthewater.com