finally back on schedule after getting my 45/45s done last night. legs were heavy during the w/u (was switching cadences and positions to get thru the 12' @ 80-85%!), but felt better when i got into the main set -- might have even seen some sparklies during the third set of 5x45/45.
need to strategize about how i approach Monday's test, as I have a big spread btwn my VO2 and FTP (35% vs. the "standard" 20%). Thinking I'll hold the VO2 where it currently is and then (hopefully) see a nice bump in FTP. Any thought from the vets? Thanks!
I had to switch yesterday's 45/45s to this morning because I wasn't able to get'em done. Happy that it felt pretty good and rode for a total of 60min.
Looking forward to Monday's bike test and will take the opportunity of a Sunday rest day to do some xmas shopping (which is a different kind of workout!)
Hey I have a question about the VO2 workouts. I use training roads and a power tap, and have created a workout for the 45/45s. I focus on smooth stable cadence for each 45s period to try to smooth out the power numbers but the instant power reading is all over the place ie for me 330 to 260w, my goal is 289w. When the workout is done I get a report of my avg power and normalized power for each segment, and to my surprise I rarely get to 1.20 for the 45s segment, usually 1.15-1.16. The only way I get even close to 1.20 is by really overshooting the effort. Is this what other people experience? I expect things will smooth out over longer segments, but I am surprised other people are reporting 1.20 on the nose for their 45s. Any thoughts?
Ever take a look at the power traces on my TR rides? I often post the links here. My power trace is all over the place, even when I have it set on 3 second averaging. The averaging for the short intervals is probably accurate though. I have a hard time making a 'table top' trace on the short & high intensity intervals but I do know that it is largely my fault for my legs just start to die with about 10 seconds to go. I have to grunt to keep it going.
Also, I think it was Al who suggested starting a more gradual climb up to the elevated power target a few seconds before the interval starts. That way you can ramp it up a little more gradually and almost be dialed in when the recorded interval starts.
@ Mike...Theory behind the 5/10/20 FTP power test is, the 5 min segment is meant to tire you out sufficiently so the 20 min segment can serve as a valid proxy ( when multiplied by 0.95) for FTP, which is supposed to be your power for an all out hour. So don't aim for a specific power level for those five min, but for an effort level you can sustain, just barely, for the full five min. Then totally just spin easy for ten min, and repeat the concept for 20 minutes....using RPE and pacing, not aiming for a specific number.
@ Mike - This will only be my second 5' & 20' test so I don't have a long history. I'm used to the old 2X20 test so take my comments for what they are worth. I posted this thread earlier that has some discussion on pacing for the 20' test and possibly holding back just slightly for the 5' VO2 section. Joel makes a good point in the thread below about me testing to a specific number and for me in the week one test I wanted to ensure I did not blow up on the 20' test and probably left a few watts on the table in both test but not many in for my FTP number.
For me it as we get deeper in to the OS you need to be in tune with the perceived exertion (PE) part of things, something I need to work on personally. As fatigue builds we have good days and bad days and this may mean if you chase a number on test day you will blow up on a bad day. Given your big spread I don't think it's a bad idea to hold back perhaps look to improved on the Vo2 number some. I don't think you want to just hold the number as you will be have that VO2 for the following 6 weeks. Just don't crush the 5' test and look for the good bump in FTP.
@Satish - There's actually a lot to talk about here.
Instantaneous power is stochastic - it reads the power in the moment every second and assumes that over a short time you get a reasonably accurate number. Depending on how smooth your pedal stroke is, and where you are in your stroke, any single reading is effectively random within a known distribution, so momentary readings will vary wildly within a range. Over the course of 5, 10, or 45 seconds, you get enough readings to have a reasonably stable value that accurately reflects your power output.
There are a few things you can do with this. Indoors or outdoors, you can display your 3s or 5s average power, which can be a more useful number for correlating your effort to your actual power, which gives you what you need: "I need to push harder to be in zone," or "I'm pushing too hard and I need to back off to be in zone," or "I'm right about where I need to be in terms of effort." In the TrainerRoad client, you can specify whether you want instantaneous power or 3s or 5s smoothing. The problem with 5s smoothing is the 5s delay, but the truth is that it gives you a much more useful number. I do the same on my Garmin 310xt when I'm on the road.
On the trainer, you also have one more option. It's pretty easy to maintain a specific cadence in a specific gear; if you pick a gear and a cadence and hold that, then your average power for any interval over a few seconds should be consistent. If your AP numbers are coming out too low then you just pick up the cadence in that gear by one or two RpM and you'll be on target. Personally, I work with three gears - in one I hit my VO2 target at 89 RPM; one at 95 RPM; one at 100 RPM. For FTP, I use two gears. In one, I hit FTP at 93; in another I hit at about 99. I know this from having hit a lot of intervals.
A lot of the very smooth table-tops you see in the TrainerRoad workouts are from people using virtual power, which is based on cadence, speed, and the trainer you're on. This results in very little variability of measurement, because regardless of your instantaneous power in any one instant, your cadence and speed are probably quite consistent.
One more thought, although this is less relevant to the OS; you can use your instantaneous power numbers around your average power to see if you can even out your pedal stroke. The less the standard deviation of your instantaneous power measurements around the mean, the more even your power output is. That's more about skill than fitness, but it can be helpful because an even power output helps you get the most forward motion for your level of fitness on race day.
Bottom line - I recommend using cadence on the trainer in a set gear to hit your average power target. If you're too cool, pick up the cadence. If you're too hot, take down the cadence. On the road, use power smoothing and a lap-power readount to gauge where you are relative to target; you will have more variability on the road, because roads are variable.
Hope this helps - defer to more experienced members if anyone else wishes to comment.
@ Russell: That is actually really helpful. I have used 3s smoothing in the past but had switched back to instant power (dunno why). I do aim for a constant cadence that I know will give me close to my goal power for a given gear i.e around 100rpm this last session. I usually spin up about 5s before the interval starts although I always seem to spike the power in the beginning, then as the interval progresses and I focus on spinning smooth to get through it, cadence goes up to 101-104 which gives a spike in power, then I ease off, power drops, pick it up etc etc you see what I mean. Part of the problem likely was that at the cadence I was trying to do this last session at, I was in between gears. (I know I shouldn't worry about cadence or position but it is fun to see if I can spin smoothly at the higher cadences in aero position).
I understand what you mean about the stochastic nature of the instantaneous power reading so I will try the 5s power smoothing which I have not used before.
Had to shuffle the workouts around this week again, but I managed to get them all in. I have to say, though, that in doing so, the 4x6' run was on Tue, VO2 ended up being wed., and the FTP 2x20' workout followed on Thurs. That combo hurt, but I enjoyed some yoga today. Hack attack again next week, so planning to bike test tomorrow, and run test on Monday.
@Al: Your imagery of your 8 year old self facing the dark basement was just what I needed to get through the 2x2'0. Brilliant! Thanks!
saturday's bike workout in today. tough but doable. 0.98,0.99,0.99 and 16' at .84 to get to 80 total.. I sure hope the mitochondria and capilleries are growing because I sure earned them. will do the run tomorrow first thing and then I get to do real work until monday morning (yay ). Have a nice weekend everyone.
Got it done, but my heart wasn't in it. My heart is in connecticut. I guess this was good practice for those moments in the race where your head and heart don't want to be there, but you make your body do the work and keep going. If ever there was a workout that had no meaning to me whatsoever, it was today. Keep going, everybody, it's what we do.
I was up and at 'em realtively early, but felt a lot better through the intervals than I have in the past couple Saturday rides. Getting over the cold flu thing has helped, but it felt good. I finished with about 70+ min, staying right at about Z3 HR for the remainder of the ride.
I do have a question for the testing, if I initially tested outdoors, but have done basically all the training indoors, should I test indoors this time or go outside again to see where I am related to the previous test? In retrospect, I probably should have tested indoors the first time, but hindsight is 20/20. Please let me know what you all think gang!
Got my bike+run in this morning. All 3 intervals at 1.0. First one in particular felt like a breeze, but difficulty increased on #2 & 3, so was definitely working. Quick 15 min tempo run afterwards.
Actually going to be in the pool later today for the first time since the OS started...for my son's birthday pool party, so no cheating, but I may take a few strokes.
These wko's were a welcome diversion from the harsh reality of the world we live in. Gave the kiddos extra hugs last night and this morning.
@Al, Gordon. Thx so much for the testing advice. I think I'm going all out for the 5' cause that's how I did my first one and I need an apples to apples comparison. Can't wait!
@ Scott...the main purpose of testing in the OS is to provide guidance for your training efforts. So, you should test in the environment in which you anticipate doing your workouts during the upcoming six weeks. If that means you'll have in vs out tests to compare, you'll lose that info, but that's less important then getting your zones right for future workouts.
So, the bike and run workouts are in the books. Wasn't really feeling it so it was good to have dialed it back to the 97-98% range. That couple of percentage points makes a difference. Anyway, strange to note that TR thinks I set a new 60 minute best of 220w when I wasn't going for such a goal. I think it might be that I didn't have to drop down so much for the rest periods.
The run was just so so. I'm expecting a considerable drop in VDOT next week but I suppose that's okay. I'm noticing a difference in how I feel as I start out on these brick runs. I am used to feeling a thorough dread in my head, heart, legs, left foot, you name it, I don't want to run. It's even that way during races. With most of these brick runs, I'm not beginning the run already feeling burnt out. Some of the EN magic starting to sink in, maybe? Perhaps I'll take this to heart and not try to be a hero on the bike. I guess in the past I've always raced the bike like a VO2max ride... Heh.
No biking for me today.. traveling on Monday so rescheduled my workouts a bit. RUn test today, will to today's bike tomorrow. Then Monday off and Bike FTP test on Tuesday.
Bike and run in the books. The Bike felt good, but I'm not expecting to see a lot of movement in my FTP on Monday In fact I'm hoping to hold where I'm at now. Did the run as a brick, but cut it short as my calf started get really tight. I'll have to spend some quality time with the Trigger Point kit tonight. Hopefully it's back to normal for the tests.
The run was just so so. I'm expecting a considerable drop in VDOT next week but I suppose that's okay. I'm noticing a difference in how I feel as I start out on these brick runs. I am used to feeling a thorough dread in my head, heart, legs, left foot, you name it, I don't want to run. It's even that way during races. With most of these brick runs, I'm not beginning the run already feeling burnt out. Some of the EN magic starting to sink in, maybe? Perhaps I'll take this to heart and not try to be a hero on the bike. I guess in the past I've always raced the bike like a VO2max ride... Heh.
@Peter - same here. You have just mastered something that EN teaches that most of us kinda figure out on our own, after several years of suffering. My best races are when I hold back on the bike and start the run with something in the tank. I used to race like a 40k TT and then shuffle and say, "I'm just not a good runner anymore...".
Last post from this morning's early workout! Nailed the 2X14'(4') and 1 x 7"(5') @ Z4 at my new pace (20.5mph on bike), but my AVHR ended up in the Z5 range for the last two intervals. I think it being 68 degrees and like 90% humidity in my pain cave had a lot to do with it. My run afterwards was pretty tough and finally got it into Z3 at the end. Got in a total of 60' bike and 2mi run.
Time to chill out and enjoy some bowl games I taped with the DVR!
@Scott - I agree with Al. I also vote that indoors testing is always better. There are less variables from test to test and the true measure of your fitness is better measured in a controlled indoor environment. Good luck on your test next week!
Wow my whole day got derailed. I was not even home for more that an hour today. Earned some SAU's as well but no bike workout. I'm still taking the off day tomorrow so I don't sabatoge the the test. Nice work everyone, rest up for next week.
I'll be posting the week 8 thread here right away as I know that Roy is hitting up the test early. I'll be off getting a live Christmas tree with my brother and two nephews tomorrow for some cross training.
Not last to check in Steve! Switched it up a little bit today to do a group ride. It was hard work, lots of fun. But typical post rains, we had a total of 4 flat tires, one was mine. looking forward to a full day off on the weekend in prep for next weeks tests!
Since I did my 5k run test yesterday I did yesterday's bike this morning. It was MUCH harder than the bike workouts from earlier in the week, RPE was very high but did all intervals between 1.01 and 0.99 IF so happy with that. Now rest the rest of the day and tomorrow... then bike test on Tuesday!
Comments
Keep the mojo coming everyone!
need to strategize about how i approach Monday's test, as I have a big spread btwn my VO2 and FTP (35% vs. the "standard" 20%). Thinking I'll hold the VO2 where it currently is and then (hopefully) see a nice bump in FTP. Any thought from the vets? Thanks!
Looking forward to Monday's bike test and will take the opportunity of a Sunday rest day to do some xmas shopping (which is a different kind of workout!)
Hey I have a question about the VO2 workouts. I use training roads and a power tap, and have created a workout for the 45/45s. I focus on smooth stable cadence for each 45s period to try to smooth out the power numbers but the instant power reading is all over the place ie for me 330 to 260w, my goal is 289w. When the workout is done I get a report of my avg power and normalized power for each segment, and to my surprise I rarely get to 1.20 for the 45s segment, usually 1.15-1.16. The only way I get even close to 1.20 is by really overshooting the effort. Is this what other people experience? I expect things will smooth out over longer segments, but I am surprised other people are reporting 1.20 on the nose for their 45s. Any thoughts?
Also, I think it was Al who suggested starting a more gradual climb up to the elevated power target a few seconds before the interval starts. That way you can ramp it up a little more gradually and almost be dialed in when the recorded interval starts.
@ Mike...Theory behind the 5/10/20 FTP power test is, the 5 min segment is meant to tire you out sufficiently so the 20 min segment can serve as a valid proxy ( when multiplied by 0.95) for FTP, which is supposed to be your power for an all out hour. So don't aim for a specific power level for those five min, but for an effort level you can sustain, just barely, for the full five min. Then totally just spin easy for ten min, and repeat the concept for 20 minutes....using RPE and pacing, not aiming for a specific number.
@ Mike - This will only be my second 5' & 20' test so I don't have a long history. I'm used to the old 2X20 test so take my comments for what they are worth. I posted this thread earlier that has some discussion on pacing for the 20' test and possibly holding back just slightly for the 5' VO2 section. Joel makes a good point in the thread below about me testing to a specific number and for me in the week one test I wanted to ensure I did not blow up on the 20' test and probably left a few watts on the table in both test but not many in for my FTP number.
http://members.endurancenation.us/T...fault.aspx
For me it as we get deeper in to the OS you need to be in tune with the perceived exertion (PE) part of things, something I need to work on personally. As fatigue builds we have good days and bad days and this may mean if you chase a number on test day you will blow up on a bad day. Given your big spread I don't think it's a bad idea to hold back perhaps look to improved on the Vo2 number some. I don't think you want to just hold the number as you will be have that VO2 for the following 6 weeks. Just don't crush the 5' test and look for the good bump in FTP.
Gordon
@Satish - There's actually a lot to talk about here.
@ Russell: That is actually really helpful. I have used 3s smoothing in the past but had switched back to instant power (dunno why). I do aim for a constant cadence that I know will give me close to my goal power for a given gear i.e around 100rpm this last session. I usually spin up about 5s before the interval starts although I always seem to spike the power in the beginning, then as the interval progresses and I focus on spinning smooth to get through it, cadence goes up to 101-104 which gives a spike in power, then I ease off, power drops, pick it up etc etc you see what I mean. Part of the problem likely was that at the cadence I was trying to do this last session at, I was in between gears. (I know I shouldn't worry about cadence or position but it is fun to see if I can spin smoothly at the higher cadences in aero position).
I understand what you mean about the stochastic nature of the instantaneous power reading so I will try the 5s power smoothing which I have not used before.
@Al: Your imagery of your 8 year old self facing the dark basement was just what I needed to get through the 2x2'0. Brilliant! Thanks!
Keep up the strong work everyone.
saturday's bike workout in today. tough but doable. 0.98,0.99,0.99 and 16' at .84 to get to 80 total.. I sure hope the mitochondria and capilleries are growing because I sure earned them. will do the run tomorrow first thing and then I get to do real work until monday morning (yay
). Have a nice weekend everyone.
In!
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/127482
Run later... have a great day, all
Got it done, but my heart wasn't in it. My heart is in connecticut. I guess this was good practice for those moments in the race where your head and heart don't want to be there, but you make your body do the work and keep going. If ever there was a workout that had no meaning to me whatsoever, it was today. Keep going, everybody, it's what we do.
I do have a question for the testing, if I initially tested outdoors, but have done basically all the training indoors, should I test indoors this time or go outside again to see where I am related to the previous test? In retrospect, I probably should have tested indoors the first time, but hindsight is 20/20. Please let me know what you all think gang!
Actually going to be in the pool later today for the first time since the OS started...for my son's birthday pool party, so no cheating, but I may take a few strokes.
These wko's were a welcome diversion from the harsh reality of the world we live in. Gave the kiddos extra hugs last night and this morning.
@ Scott...the main purpose of testing in the OS is to provide guidance for your training efforts. So, you should test in the environment in which you anticipate doing your workouts during the upcoming six weeks. If that means you'll have in vs out tests to compare, you'll lose that info, but that's less important then getting your zones right for future workouts.
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/127693
The run was just so so. I'm expecting a considerable drop in VDOT next week but I suppose that's okay. I'm noticing a difference in how I feel as I start out on these brick runs. I am used to feeling a thorough dread in my head, heart, legs, left foot, you name it, I don't want to run. It's even that way during races. With most of these brick runs, I'm not beginning the run already feeling burnt out. Some of the EN magic starting to sink in, maybe? Perhaps I'll take this to heart and not try to be a hero on the bike. I guess in the past I've always raced the bike like a VO2max ride... Heh.
Bike and run in the books. The Bike felt good, but I'm not expecting to see a lot of movement in my FTP on Monday In fact I'm hoping to hold where I'm at now. Did the run as a brick, but cut it short as my calf started get really tight. I'll have to spend some quality time with the Trigger Point kit tonight. Hopefully it's back to normal for the tests.
@Peter - same here. You have just mastered something that EN teaches that most of us kinda figure out on our own, after several years of suffering. My best races are when I hold back on the bike and start the run with something in the tank. I used to race like a 40k TT and then shuffle and say, "I'm just not a good runner anymore...".
Time to chill out and enjoy some bowl games I taped with the DVR!
2x15'(3') 1x7' @ (0.996 - 0.995 - 0.984) no extra time
Total bike 60' @ (0.894)
Really looking forward to test week. NOS is going to rock!
Wow my whole day got derailed. I was not even home for more that an hour today. Earned some SAU's as well but no bike workout. I'm still taking the off day tomorrow so I don't sabatoge the the test. Nice work everyone, rest up for next week.
I'll be posting the week 8 thread here right away as I know that Roy is hitting up the test early. I'll be off getting a live Christmas tree with my brother and two nephews tomorrow for some cross training.
Gordon
Not last to check in Steve! Switched it up a little bit today to do a group ride. It was hard work, lots of fun. But typical post rains, we had a total of 4 flat tires, one was mine. looking forward to a full day off on the weekend in prep for next weeks tests!