Overtraining risk?

harrast

First, some history:  I have been with EN just over a year now.  I have learned a ton and raced with much more confidence and consistency.  But, when I started my first OS about a year ago, I may have gotten into an overtraining mode.  My running was probably the biggest issue.  I was doing the full OS PLUS I was doing the marathon hack.  On top of this, each time I would race a PR in a local 5K, 10K or HIM, I would immediately bump up my vDot and train at the faster paces.  Soon this caught up with me and I developed foot injuries that I am still dealing with today (I have symptoms on Morton's Neuroma that are being treated with Cortisone). 

Fast forward to the Nov. OS.  The coaches say that there are no volume goals, but the workouts say to do a longer workout on the bike if you can.  So when I see a 90 bike minute workout, I'm going to program my trainer to do the top power level recommended plus I am going to fill in the remaining time at the top of the Z3 power level.  In other words, when the workout says 95-100%, I am going to program my workout to do 100% always (computrainer only accepts one power number in the coaching software for a given interval).  I'm doing all the workouts, and I'm hitting all my paces.  The only exception is when my foot acts up, I can't extend my runs; I can only do the main set. 

So, here's my worry.  Is using the highest power level for a recommended range and going the full length of all the workouts putting me in danger of overtraining?  If it is, I really don't want to go there and sit on that plateu when I could be doing less and getting faster.  Overtraining is such a fine line.  Right now I feel great and I don't want to spoil it.  Thoughts?

rmiller

Thats a really great question, and I'll be paying attention to the answers. This is my first OS, and I've been noticing that while I've made improvements, they don't seem to be as drastic as some others' improvements based on how my TP runs or FTP sessions have gone vs others. I mean, I've been generally hitting the goals, but whereas some people are anticipating noticeable jumps in their VDOT during the test next week, I anticipate no real change. So it occurred to me that although I've hit the vast majority of the stated goals, there might be a chance that I'm doing more than I should be for the optimum rate of speed gains (if that makes any sense).

Peter Wick

I'm in line right behind Ryan here. I'm not sure I'm going to have much of a bump either. In fact I suspect my VDOT may go down. Don't know what my bike stats will do but I've been trying to hit the workouts as hard as I can while mostly obeying the targets.

Brenda Ross

I have been with EN for three years now. My opinion is that there is a range given for a reason and I think that reason is because you can improve between those ranges. I know that it is hard to not want to tap out at the top of the recommended zone,because we are all A type personalities, but I do not think it is necessary to go there for every workout. I think you already know the answer to this question Steven if you are really being true to yourself. I know that this year I will not be doing any speed work in my long runs. For the past two years when I do that I incur an injury, which I can quickly get myself out of, but I think it is because I get so fatigued by the end of the week, that by the time I get to the Thursday run, if I put speed in, I just get tired and my form is affected and I get injured. I think listening to your inner voice is an important tool to master as a long distance athlete.

Tom Glynn

I find my biggest concern is the running portion. I can push really hard on the bike and strive for the higher targets in general. If I'm tired or mentally spent I won't be able to hold the watts and I just have to kind of fade away. I have no real fear of injuring myself. It's more of a mental challenge. If I miss a workout target, or two or three, I will always dial back until I get my grove back and then I start pushing again.

The run is different for me. I'm rarely injured and if I am it's typically just really tight calves. I am always concerned that I may try to do too much. There are a lot of people out there that lose whole seasons over running injuries and I don't ever want to be one of them. With that mind set, I'm really careful about upping mileage too quickly, doing intervals too hard and even careful about stupid things like tripping. For me consistency trumps all with regards to running. Better to run 5-6 days per week than same mileage with fewer days. No long runs over about 2:15. I make break that rule once our twice in my IM prep, but it's very rare.

I guess to summarize then, on the bike, when in doubt, keep pushing. On the run, when in doubt, stop or slow down.

Al Truscott

 @ Steven ... Specifically with regards to those workouts on the CompuTrainer. I do not program my CT for a flat line @ 100% for all the FTP intervals. I will vary things, like ramp up from 96-100, down from 100 to 98%, whatever. Same thing with the 85% stuff.  My first OS, I was an overachiever, but there is no value. If you want to go harder, nail your test next week, then do the subsequent intervals anywhere from 95-100%.

bottom line, dont drive the training plan into a brick wall. Consistency trumps the occasional breakthrough workout in the OS

Swanie

@Steven- I can help answer your question with a story about my year last season. I was doing the JOS and doing a Marathon Hack for an April Marathon. my Vdot climbed to 52 and was nailing every run workout without fail. More distance and faster pace every week. My run fitness had never been so good. And it felt effortless. When the marathon came around in April I was ready...and then came mile 10 and the wheels fell off! All those intense runs came back and bit me hard, I finished that race in 3:22 and qualified for Boston but spent the next 6 months at a much lower Vdot (42 vs 52). My legs completely fell apart in that race. I struggled through my 2012 season in far below par performances. Finally after running the Marine Corp Marathon in October, I stood down and have done NOTHING for the past 7 weeks. I told myself I wont do anything for a total of 9 weeks. I am finally feeling better and just now looking to begin the JOS. Don't be this guy! It will bite you in the ass and it makes for a long year knowing you didn't have to train that way. This year I will take the workouts at the lower of the ranges and shorter of the times and let my body dictate my performance not my brain. Good luck!

Norton

Here's another way of dealing with the possibility that the cumulative intensity of the OS is breaking you down, rather than building you up: swallow your pride and step down a notch in plan intensity. Currently rolling the Intermediate Plan? Change to the Beginner Plan. Although I'm no beginner, I did this to great success the last time I ran through the OS; much better to be fresh and happily hitting all the workouts rather than riding a ragged edge of overtraining and overuse injuries.

harrast

It makes sense that the greatest risk of overtraining and injury is on the run. I think I have learned my lesson here, and have been careful to listen to my body and back off at signs of injury. And I'm sure Al is right that anywhere in the power range for the cycling workouts is going to improve fitness. I guess where I'm going with this is that overtraining is a subtle trap for many, including myself. At first everything seems fine, numbers are being hit, fitness seems to be improving, races are going well (mostly) then there's a plateau, sometimes an injury. The problem is, the plateau only shows up in hindsight. So, I'm going on the hypothesis that the workouts done within the intensity and length limits are not going to lead to overtraining. I know there are no guarantees in life, but I think it can be reasonably assumed that (my) past overtraining/injuries happened because of work significantly beyond the plans. Okay, thanks for letting me think this out.

Gordon Cherwoniak

Steven,

Some great comments already. With a couple additions thoughts:

- 95-100% is there for a reason and as Brenda said you still get a good workout.  On the run there is some comments about spend as much time in zX as possible.  You don't have to run all of it in z3 but you can. 

- I use the 95% when needed now.  Also I lower the z3 running time, some times not doing any if I am tired.  The same goes for the Z3/85% bike stuff.  Remember it say, not necessary.  I do like to get the bike 85% riding in when ever possible but I will cut this out on occasion as well. 

- Rest and recovery - When feeling sluggish get and extra hour a sleep.  Also watch the food intake and post workout recovery.  Finally acknowledge the outside stresses of life they have an impact.

- If you have not see the articles in the wiki or perhaps re-read these if you have.  I probably missed some as there are tons of great information:

    Self coaching guide - Personally I like the "don't train in to a brick wall" and remember to try to space the workouts apart for recovery.

http://members.endurancenation.us/R...usting+You

     Workout triage - it's okay to do less, when not feeling it - http://members.endurancenation.us/R...Out+Triage

   Focusing on What matters, thank Mike G for this - Check out the 4 point at the end especially assessing you fatigue level.

http://members.endurancenation.us/R...+in+the+OS

  Outseason Recovery week - If you get past the line Coach P has this in the Wiki.

https://www.box.com/s/jixvr640fkddh6jyv2fe

Gordon

cgres123

These are all great come backs Steven much to take away.

Sorry to read about the foot issue. The shame of this is that you are injured cause you did something you like a lot and that is running. If all things go hey wire in life I would rather be able to keep running first then bike 2nd and lastly swim, for that matter I would rather life weights than swim. But, I can only add biking legs carry over to some extent in running where as not the other way around. I would stay at the highest level of biking I tested at 100% all the time and baby the run to the lowest possible denominator until you are well enough to run strong. Take it easy with that, running its too much fun to not do.

mgraffeo

Posted By Al Truscott on 13 Dec 2012 08:04 PM

My first OS, I was an overachiever, but there is no value.

 

Many of us have been through the same learning Al describes here.  If you've got a chance to learn from this and not have to repeat it, you'd be wise to think it through.

I lost 2 months of training due to overtraining during the OS build before IMLP 2010.  What a waste to have your lifetime high in FTP in February, and then never see it again for the rest of the year...

Scott Alexander

"There is no overtraining, only under-recovering!". It's a ratio. You have to find what works for you the best. Listen to the body queues, especially for those of us that get injured more frequently. That is my Jedi wisdom for the day.

Pina

 You've got some great f/b with direction to training. @scott nailed it too, don't forget to play close attention to what you're doing the other 20-23 hours of the day. Diet, supplements, rest, sleep, lifestyle, stress all influence recovery. Remember it's not how hard you train, it's how well you recover from hard training. 

mpaone

This discussion couldn't have come at a better time for me. As a newbie to EN, and triathlons in general, (my first year) I do find myself pushing myself to the higher end of every workout. All out, all the time. Reading the above posts has really put some perspective into my training outlook. I dont want to train so hard that I have nothing to show for it come the Spring. My goal is the be faster yes but healthy first and foremost. Thanks for the enlightenment!

Peter Greagg

As Mike, Alk and others have said, it is easy to slip down the slope into overtraining.
So learn how much is enough work for you and keep in mind the importance of recovery — it is only after the recovery that we improve. If we don't recover properly we are wasting the work we are doing, and putting our health at risk.
I have done two EN OSs, and blown myself up both times with my Vdot and FTP falling after about week 8 — don't be me! It took over two months to partially recover.
Next OS, I am going to take Bill Russell's advice and drop down to Beginer, rather than my usual Intermediate flavour.

Norton

Posted By Peter Greagg on 18 Dec 2012 07:02 PM

As Mike, Alk and others have said, it is easy to slip down the slope into overtraining.

So learn how much is enough work for you and keep in mind the importance of recovery — it is only after the recovery that we improve. If we don't recover properly we are wasting the work we are doing, and putting our health at risk.

I have done two EN OSs, and blown myself up both times with my Vdot and FTP falling after about week 8 — don't be me! It took over two months to partially recover.

Next OS, I am going to take Bill Russell's advice and drop down to Beginer, rather than my usual Intermediate flavour.

Weeks 8-12 of the OS are littered with burned-out athletes, year after year. 

harrast

All very true. One more point on recovery. I've been following my race-day-nutrition plan for all of my workouts including taking a recovery drink at the end. My body is liking this. I never feel under fueled. I just need to figure out how to do this and still lose some weight...

morpheus

I have to add myself to the list of those who don't feel the need to hit 100% every time.

I don't even shoot for 100%. I'd rather feel good about completing the whole workout as prescribed, while keeping in the back of my mind that my main goal with these 'successfully completed workouts' is to put several weeks/months of nailed workouts together.

I learned very quickly that hitting 100% on every interval just wasn't going to hold for me. ESPECIALLY on the runs!

Someone (Matt A.? Chris Whyte?) had a great post about using these numbers to drive our workouts but not getting so caught up in a 93% or 91% or 97% because each day brings different crap to the table when we settle in for the workout. I'll see if I can dig that up. It really helped me move past the Pass/Fail angle.