How about another marathon ?

cgres123

I finished the Philly marathon November 18th. Since then I stood down for a week just biking to spin the lactic acid out of the legs then incorporated light running. One month later I'm holding about a 12 to 17 miles per week run total base. That is about 3 X per week. The plan is from Daniels Book on Running. More specific his outline for running the 5K - 15K distance. I picked that plan because I'm using it as a get faster plan. The plan is set up 1 tempo, 1 interval and 1 long run per week. It is challenging!

 

 I'm getting into biking again with 2 to 3 bike rides per week as well just getting the azz bones used to the saddle so I can sit for an hour prepping for the JOS to start and test. 

 

The point I'm making is that the legs are getting some training per day with Sundays off as I always do. My question is if I continue to train as listed above, which sort of looks like an OS hack.

 

What is your best guess as to how many weeks it would take me to be in marathon condition and run it better than the Philly marathon ?

Peter Wick

What is your priority here, triathlon fitness or marathon fitness? How does your body tolerate the run volume and intensity you just described? How have you set up your 2013 racing schedule?

I think you know the answers to these questions (I don't) so keep that stuff in mind as you look 3-4 months down the road for your next marathon. Have fun.

cgres123

My priorities are wishy washy. I'm not loving the idea of a pool as yet. I need to just jump in and go for a swim. I have been avoiding it so see if me and it are still friends.

My body is tolerating this volume so far so good. Down range who knows.

Nothing for 2013 yet on paper. I was thinking about the Cape May to Sea Isle City marathon in late March. I was also toying with a bike focus season to offset the beating running can have on the body.

Nice to have choices ... no ?

david ware

David: I think if you do three good runs a week (speed, tempo, long) the body will reco er better a d you may be ready before you think. It does come down to what the body is able to handle. I am trying to take fitness from IMAZ and run Phoenix RnR 13 weeks later. Body is hanging in ther but tired. You can do this!

Peter Wick

Didn't mean to throw cold water on you, David. After all the running I did last year, I'm seriously impressed at how much you're doing. My foot always bugs me and it's in my head. I can only dream of running like you do.

Carl

How much faster would you like to run your upcoming marathon??

cgres123

@ CN, long term is inching my way to Boston , minutes would be nice in the right direction ! Always on the PR side and improving

Joseph Lombardi

 12-16 weeks...run focus.  I posted on your other thread....but deleted it cuz I thought I sounded flip...but making the cut for Boston in our AG shouldn't be that difficult....I seem to recall you're pretty close already....  But don't by the cr&p about cross training....you need a run focus to get 'er done....  My plan this year is an early season IM (IMTX in May)  with a target 1/2 Marathon PR out of the OS (Myrtle Beach in Feb)....then switching to a run focused program to take a shot at 3hrs at an early fall Marathon....  Last 2 years I did IMLouisville which is in late August....never left me much time to get back to a run focus for my traditional fall marathoning....let me know if you want to chat more about marathoning... 

cgres123

Now Joe why would you sound flip ?

If Boston is a 3:40 I'm at best a 4:15 so to me that is a LONG way away. But coming from 5 hour I'm getting better.

Joseph Lombardi

 Well to say that BQ'ing is easy...is a bit flip....

From the other thread I thought you were only 10'min off of 3:40ish......4:15 to 3:40 is a bit of a way to go...but not sure of you're background etc....

I think with a run focus it is possible...don't focus on vDot for this....What you need is run specific volume & speedurance...not necessarily at top end speed vDot....

I don't have my Daniels handy...but I went from 4:15 to 3:50 in one season...(just coming back to running after 40...then dropped from there to 3:30...so its possible for you in one focused stretch to get there I bet...or at least take a real run at it....but like others have said...i think your talking about a concentrated run stretch...putting triathlon aside ...which ain't necessarily a bad thing...(you can swim and bike on rest days as xtraining...)

cgres123

Joe, right on that is my idea as I really don't have a season per say in mine. I'm doing Daniels 5k to 15k training block which is 3 days a week structured and the rest cross training.

My cross training will be biking. My back ground is lots of years doing triathlon, armature kickboxing and competitive bodybuilding. I have a ton of the wrong type muscle fibers which I'm working to convert to the correct fibers. That is an awesome gain listed above you accomplished and the direction I am working towards.

Daniels is my plan for now as I'm raising my roof with a longer than 5k plan as listed above. This is what EN has taught me to do with their style and I don't know if what I'm doing is the right way I'm winging it. I'm not a coach that is why I'm looking for all the input from everybody as I'll take in the information and decide my best possible path.

Sound good ?

Joseph Lombardi

 I believe; and it is imho...that you/we need to get a bit beyond the 3/week always work, and add mileage in order to make the run magic happen (for a run only target event)....you should run minimum of 5 days per week and maybe swim on the rest days....min. mileage should be 35-45/week....again 3 key workouts...1xlong 10-20, 1x Interval (400-mile), 1x Tempo (2-6mile).....2-3x easy runs (3-6mile)............

pretty standard framework...key is pace selection and pace discipline (hard on hard days...easy on easy day....) rest & recovery.

Again this is all just IMHO (and experience). I like Daniels - best for understanding and picking workout paces... but I think his plans/workouts (in the Daniels Method book) are too complicated.

I love running!  

cgres123

I was thinking and re-thinking the weekly mileage I'm doing now with his plan as explained above. The mileage is about 15 - 17. On the other days ( off days ) with my biking as off days I was thinking on adding 3 - 4 mile easy run after the bike, a brick.

As I said I'm rethinking a way to add mileage and my brick idea may trash me. The bike idea was a way to push my way into a duathlon into the season and or enjoy rides with friends or some other venue that may pop up like Hell of Hunterdon.

My wanting my cake and eating it too may prove to be to much with the brick idea I'm not sure.

The Daniels book is complicated, really why did he write it like that?

Steve West

@ David - I think Joseph has it right. I made my biggest gains in running doing more or less what he suggested. I had 18 minute PRs in 2 different seasons using that kind of structure. The only real difference in what I was doing was instead of track intervals every week, I alternated hill repeats and intervals, (mostly 800s). And I was not biking at all, nor was I swimming.

As far as the bike and brick stuff, I'd say no. Not if you are serious about a BQ. Maybe 1 ride a week for 60'- 90' as an ABP type of ride but no FTP stuff - it will likely put too much load on top of 40+ miles of running. Remember what Joseph and I are suggesting is 2.5 to 3 times the mileage you are doing now. Thats a huge increase and will take some time to ramp up to it (you know the 10% rule for mileage increase).

On a side note, I too had been a long way qualifing for a number of years. To me it seemed impossible to drop more than 40' off my then current times. But once I got better at training and understood that easy runs needed to be easy (zone 1-2) and hard runs needed to be hard (zone 4+) things changed. By avoiding all zone 3 stuff in training was the single best thing I could do for speed. I got faster without trying. Then when I raced, I'd start in zone 2 for the first few miles but would hold upper zone 3 for all but the last 2-3 miles where I would push to my limit. In the past 3 years I have BQed 4 times in 6 marathons. So, yes it is possible - if you commit to it.

Swanie

@ David- I can speak directly to your situation as I was there 12 months ago. Except I was going into a JOS in prep for an Ironman Canada in August. From experience I would NOT attempt an OS and a BQ run when you need to drop 35 minutes off your time, it won't happen and you will be tore up for the rest of the year if not longer. I was 20 minutes off a BQ and was doing a full OS my run training was going great but my bike was faltering, I was able to BQ in an April marathon but spent the rest of the year dealing the resulting leg injuries that I sustained in that lead up. This resulted in a dismall performance at Ironman Canada. I am just now getting my legs back and this is after taking 9 weeks completely off. So my advice to you is either go for a BQ or do a OS- you wont be able to do both. As for a great training aid for a BQ run I would suggest the book "Run Less Run Farther" (Running World) it has run workouts broken down per each BQ time standard. It has you running three key workouts per week (no junk or easy runs) and then cross training the other days. The workouts give you paces for each run based on YOUR BQ time. Very cool book and an easy read. I liked it so much that when I couldnt find this fall I went and bought another copy.

cgres123

Steve, good stuff and advice well taken @56 I'm very happy to be playing and I don't want an injury. As the marathon training was ending my calfs were barking at me and needed to stand down a tad when I needed to ramp up....

Your right ! all ya all are right. I have been ramping up for a lot of years for a out season and not doing one well just seems wierd.

cgres123

Well I got the book Run less run Faster, aside from all the physiology I just wanted the gist of the how too. It is similar to Jack Daniels no doubt but a much easier read.
Having read Jack Daniels book I'm way ahead of the learning curve with Vdot knowledge.
I like the 3 day a week running approach which may allow me to cross train. I will attempt an OS as I'm not committed to a run only program yet because of an up coming vacation.
My OS will still be hacked with more run training however as I want to have that fitness continue to improve.

cgres123

Ok so I read the book. Coach P said I need at least a 43 vdot. I'm a 40. So yea I could train for another marathon but doing so at this point means I'd run a 40ish marathon based on that vdot.

What do you suggest I do to keep bumping up my vdot?

Swanie

@David- I am doing the JOS hacked with the three quality runs per week as suggested in the book. Monday is track intervals, Wed is tempo run and Saturday is long run MP out HMP back. What I have found is that you have to mind your paces on Saturday or the other two run days suffer. But I see noticeable improvement in my RPE in the runs, I haven't retested yet but will likely see an improvement in a couple weeks in my Vdot. Last year I attempted this same schedule but could not maintain the OS bike WO's by week 8. This year I am monitoring my long runs much closer.

cgres123

@ Steve, I'm following the same program as you to the T. I'm on vacation and will pick back up where I left off as I return. So my 3 quality runs are taken from my current Vdot as tested . Do you think I should be using a marathon training program or a lesser program to boost up my Vdot? Do you think followings the marathon program is the best way to go? I see the value of putting miles on my legs and the continue build as the focus is all about a marathon. I'm bouncing this off the forums looking for some input as the best WTG.

lcomer

Just read this. Maybe I'm a little late for the conversation but I used that book, Run Less Run Faster. I had great success with it. I have never run more than 3 days a week (except for an occasional 10-15min brick run as a 4th). With swimming 2X a week, biking 3X a week and running 3X a week, I found that I had all the endurance/miles on my body I needed to stay injury free and get faster. I followed the plan to a T for the tempo and long run, modified the track intervals to a tempo run occasionally if I felt my body wasn't up for intervals. I BQ'd twice using the plan from Run Less Run Faster. My top mileage week was 35-37miles(can't remember exactly). Good luck with your marathon!

cgres123

Thx ,it has a lot of good stuff in it for sure especially the part that says race a marathon twice a ysar. Sure you can do one a month but for peak performance that would be the best approach.