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Jack Daniels VS EN

shawn702shawn702
in General Training Discussions

Just picked up the book Jack Daniels Running Formula Second Edition.

So before I get deep into the book. Whats the difference between Jack Daniels and  EN training/runing stragey?

Comments

  • mgraffeomgraffeo
    Jack Daniels plans assume that all you do is run. EN uses the same Vdot-based approach, but doesn't prescribe the same plan because we've got a lot of other sports to fit in, so the running is in the context of a multisport plan. So, for example, very little R-pace runs in EN, because recovery costs are high as is injury risk.
  • cgres123cgres123
    Roy I think you will enjoy the book. it is a tough read. if you like books on exercise physiology you will probably like this one. I am working on the 5k through 15k workout to prepare for the January out season test. I remember Mike commented on 1 of my post about training. Mike tried to train using Jack Daniels method with the out season and he said he got fried. the r paces with biking is a killer.
  • Dave TalloDave Tallo
    Yes, what Mike and David said. Also EN in-season plans augment Jack Daniels with the introduction of Half Marathon pace - a great way to pile on the tTSS, without the same sharp recovery cost of the faster stuff.

    I love / hate HMP.

    In any case, it's a very good read: you'll see a number of the principles in your EN workouts explained rather clearly, and this understanding lets you make some good, yet safe, tweaks as you see fit.
  • russGrussG

    This is a little redundant with content already provided...

    True: Jack doesn't recommend a lot of MP/HMP; we do a fair amount.

    Jack recommends a lot more EP than EN.

    Jack recommends a small amount of super-fast running - R pace.

    The differences are, as noted, because running for a triathlete needs to fit in with training for other disciplines.

    We run less total volume because we need time for other disciplines, therefore we run less EP relative to TP.

    We need to balance our total training stress score across multiple disciplines, so we don't do Repetition pace, which has a big TSS and long recovery.

    The emphasis on out-and-backs at MP and HMP - no idea.  Jack would say these are too hard to be easy (too much recovery) and too easy to be hard (not enough TP bounce to justify the recovery).  Could be that RnP want us to get really accustomed to the paces we're going to run in races... 

    I found the book very readable - more so than Allen/Coggan for example.  It has short bio pieces throughout of athletes Jack Daniels coached, which are fun to read.  It has some nice charts and graphs to illustrate the approach to training effect (apply determined load for six weeks, stay with it, test and increase load...)  

    I got a lot out of it.

  • Al TruscottAl Truscott

    Here's my theory on the value to HMP compared to TP. Remember, this is just me musing here, I've got no expert authorities to back this up.

    Observation 1: In triathlon, I notice that, in general, we run in races at one pace slower than than the distane we're tackling. IOW, for a sprinte, we're going @ 10k speed, not 5k; for HIM, @ MP, not HMP. And for the IM, we run the marathon not @ MP, but @ EP (or at least we try to.)

    Observation 2: When it comes to training for a running race, it's very helpful to do some concentrated work @ oneand two speeds faster than your planned race speed. So, for a marathon, work @ TP and HMP is very valuable. And for an IM marathon, that would translate to work @ MP and HMP.

    Don't know if those observations have any relavance to how to design a running program for triathletes, but it's how I think about it when  grumble about having to run @ HMP on a day I'm also do FTP oe VO2 work on the bike ... "It's good for getting me ready for St G 70.3 in early May"

  • MattAaronsonMattAaronson
    As others have said, Daniels' programs are for runners. It is not only that he has EP to rack up mileage, no HMP and more R-pace for speed workouts...some of the FTP workouts are just brutal by EN standards. An EN workout for FTP will be something like 4x1mile @ TP with 4' recoveries. Occasionally we will do a 2x2mile with 5 min or 1 mile recoveries. Daniels will do stuff like 6x1mi with ONE MINUTE recoveries. Or 3-4x 2-mile cruise intervals with 2 min revoveries. The quality runs in his program are really, really tough.

  • shawn702shawn702
    Thank you for taking your time to give me a heads up on the book.
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