Insight(?) re: VO2, FTP, Run Paces, etc.

kimmydct

Not sure if this is a question or just rambling about a recent insight I had after my bike test yesterday, as well as my current vdot so here goes.  Any input is welcome!  I think there have been some other convos on VO2 and FTP gaps as well...

Bike test done yesterday pre-Jan OS. Last test using old testing(although I can't seem to find the date. Let's say summer 2012) VO2= 193. Today 196. Old FTP 161, today 152. I guess the drop in FTP isn't horrible and at least it isn't back to 137 where I started last OS!! So there's bit of a gap in my VO2 vs. FTP.  Good to know right?  Perhaps I tweak OS to be a little heavier on FTP work vs. VO2?



As I was on the treadmill this morning, I started thinking about my upcoming run test and I realized that I also have a gap in my ability to hit designated Z4/Z5 run vs. Z2/Z3.  Z4/Z5 was always doable (guess I like the shorter harder efforts in either sport!).  I was rarely able to hit Z2/Z3 paces for the required time specified.  Part of it may be that my vdot was overestimated as a result of doing last year on a treadmill (i don't think I had any incline).  That time was 29:39 last Dec.  An actual 5k race that was hilly by my standards was 31:59 in May '12.  I think that is probably a more accurate representation of my run fitness. (Or lackthereof)  But I did continue to train based on the Dec. '11 test, and like I said, no issues hitting Z4/Z5 but Z2/Z3 was a no-go most of the time.  Not sure if that is more a function of an inaccurate run test or a gap in Z4/Z5 vs. Z2/Z3, mental ability to suck it up for longer intervals or what.

So I guess the question is what do I do with this information?  Or does it mean anything at all anyway? As evidenced by my FTP and vdot, I have a lot of room for improvement but the more I can focus on the right areas, the better.  Thanks for reading! 

kens1964

Kim, my nonscientific opinion is that sometimes testing results need to be tested themselves. What I mean by that is 1. Are your results reproducible? This is the scientific concept of validity. Yes, one of the reasons I train is to get better, so I want to see my numbers go up with re-testing (i.e., beginning and end of OS), but it may be worth re-testing occasionally at shorter intervals, particularly if there is the question whether the results reflect your real world fitness. 2. That's ultimately what testing is supposed to tell us--what is our real world fitness. If the results seem wrong, aside from re-testing, then small adjustments seem like a reasonable thing to try. Example, my vDot based on a fast 5K yielded a half-marathon and full marathon pace that I know was too fast for me. Doesn't mean I should force myself to run at those speeds for that long when it is too far a reach. Your Z2/Z3 pace should be do-able. If it is not, based on some vDot value, try lowering your vDot by 1-2 points see what pace that represents. I would think if zones are a range you want to be near the upper limit of that range to produce training stress, not at the lower end, of course. So, small changes. Good luck!

benvanmarcke

Kim, as to your cycling, your results from this year are not far off from last year and your ratio of VO2 max to FTP is about 1.28 so not much reason why you couldn't just follow the training plans as they are. You should be able to complete any FTP or VO2 intervals without any problems, and especially in the OS the z3 work is usually optional. That means, if you can do it (have the time, feel like doing it, are able to do it, whatever) then great, if not that's OK too. You should just try to do them and if your power starts to drop or you can't keep going in the z3 intervals then so be it. (Though i'm sure you can do it very quickly).

For running, make sure your test is representative of where you will be doing your training. Test on the treadmill with 1% incline or run outdoors on a flat road depending on where you can train and test later. From what you were saying it seemed like there was a discrepancy between your treadmill test and 5km race and i would think you tried to run too fast on the road using pace information from a treadmill test.

William Jenks

Not being able to hit the MP type running can also be an early sign of accumulated fatigue. I know it is for me. If/when I get to that point, I start monitoring things very closely, and if it gets worse, I figure out how to back off for a few days.

MattAaronson

Kim, not to sound overly harsh but I think this is an issue of psychology and mental willpower. I have been "training" with you now for quite a long time so I'm going to go out on a limb here. After your HIM last season and before you got into the IM build we went through the discussion about you bagging run workouts and how the run was always the marginal workout that would be cut out if time or other issues arose. Maybe this is wild speculation, but I suspect being unable to hit the long z2/3 stretches has a lot to do with the mental issues you have going on with running in general.

For me, running is tough. I rarely "get into a groove" and have never experienced a "runner's high". Maybe I lack endorphins. My runs are pretty much clock-watching and mental gymnastics around amount of time remaining. It sounds like you may be in the same position where the workouts are not easy and you are in a constant feeling of wanting to stop. If that is the case, I don't know how to make it easier. But I have learned to not to heed the feeling of wanting to stop and bag the workout. An example of how you can "train your brain" – in my first OS with EN in 2011 I would do the runs with 1-mile z4 repeats but ALWAYS had to stop for up to a full minute after each interval to get my HR down and recover a bit. For 2012 I made a "new year's resolution" to jog the recoveries without any stopped time. And wouldn't you know it – it was possible!!

There is a lot of talk of "stand down" and "recover a lot" and "listen to your body" etc. I don’t disagree with that in many situations but there is an element of EN training that is just really fu*king hard and you got to get the workouts done.

Sorry if this is a bit too direct but that's my pre-OS "pep talk" in the event you're making some resolutions and getting mentally prepared for the OS. I look forward to "training" with you again this year and as usual will read every workout you post. We will hold each other accountable, as we always do as teammates.

kimmydct

@Ben- I will hopefully get an accurate run test. But if I can continue to hit the Z4/Z5 paces based on a slightly higher vdot (and have been w/o injury), should I?

@William- Not sure if it was fatigue or not. I will keep an eye on that in the OS. I do think it was hard from the get-go last season. And the HMP based on my 5k test was no where near my actual HMP pace.

@Matt- Not overly harsh at all. I know running "ain't my thang" and I think my mental toughness diminishes with duration on both the bike and the run. (Unless we're talking Z1. no issues there) I can suffer for 1-5mins. fairly easily. Its hard work but I can do it. But when we're talking the length of the bike test or a 5k run, it feels impossible. I appreciate your openness. I just need to remind myself yet again where I started out 3 1/2 years ago and even though I may have slipped a bit, I can do it. (Said with Arnold Schwarzenager accent)

benvanmarcke

Posted By Kim DuBord on 29 Dec 2012 02:50 PM

@Ben- I will hopefully get an accurate run test. But if I can continue to hit the Z4/Z5 paces based on a slightly higher vdot (and have been w/o injury), should I?



 

Well, i would not, because the running at a vdot that is higher than your actual vdot makes it more likely for injuries to occur, or recovery for the next ride or run could get compromised etc. 

Al Truscott

 @ Kim ... In the Week 9 OS video, Coach P goes into some detail about this issue, how to manage run VO2 interval workouts if you are feeling you can run faster than your VDOT would indicate.

[Deleted User]

Kim, I've always had the same "problem". I have no problem hitting the Z4/Z5 intervals and always do them faster. I think that is just a result of many years of "speed work" doing those half mile/mile repeats at much faster paces. I have a much harder time holding the Z2/Z3 paces. I would never be able to do a marathon or half marathon at the paces prescribed! I have been wondering if doing the fast intervals too fast is jeopardizing my other workouts too. Maybe, like you, I just like the shorter, faster stuff. Same thing on the bike. I have no problem doing the VO2 intervals - typically too hard, but the FTP stuff is a killer for me! Even the Z3 ride after intervals or FTP has my heart-rate up there! I'll have to find the Week 9 OS video that Al is referencing:-)

Turby Wright

Kim, I come to triathlon from a running background (35 yrs) so I understand your concern about your workout paces. I am able to easily do my mile and 1/2 mile repeats 40-50 sec. faster than prescribed but I know that it will effect my upcoming workouts for sure! I think the paces are pretty close to where they should be for what we are training for here at EN. If you were training for a 5k pr I'd say blow out the 200's and 400's. But we are training for LONG endurance events. Try to hit your Z2 and Z3 as close as you can, it will serve you much better than the shorter, faster stuff. When I ran my fastest marathon (2:57 at age 47) I had been unable to do any speed work (400's-800's) because of an injury. I was however able to do my tempo runs (2 x 20 min. etc.) and was stronger and more rested going into the race. The faster stuff takes a much higher toll than the Z2-Z3 does especially since we have to swim and bike. Also the paces are based on a short, fast run and some people are a little better at short, fast than slower but longer. Push yourself mentally to hit you Z2 and Z3 work and you will see the results on race day! Good luck!!