Training Run Pace issues
I have a question for smarter people/runner types:
Bit of background: just started tri last year. Been a road cyclist for 4+years though. Have always hated running, but now getting more tolerant. Did one sprint tri last year and then HIM Austin in October. Training for 3 HIM in 2013.
Currently in Bike Focus week 5/6 (have ITB problems and Rich suggested BF for me).
Issue: I find Z1 run tempo to be just flat out too slow. I just can't bear to run that slow. Might as well walk fast. Yet, I've retested my 5K TT pace and it hasn't budged (25:30). I can do Z4 pretty easily (it's a push, but yesterday I ran 5 miles and 4 of those were faster than my Z4 pace, 3 of them well below it (my Z4 pace per the run tool is 8:44...ran two at 8:00 and one more at 8:15ish)). My plan was to run 5 miles....miles 2 and 4 at 8:00. Was planning to just "jog" (Z1 or Z2) the miles 1, 3 and 5. But, when I finished the mile 2 and 4 Z4 "intervals", and just slowed down to comfortable, I still ran miles 3 and 5 under 8:44 (my Z4 pace per the run tool). I was not pushing at all...trying to just relax and run with good form and recover.....yet that pace just settles to 8:15-8:30ish. WTHeck?
My summary/impression: I just can't run much faster (for more than a mile or so) than 8:00. (feels a bit "out of control/gangly in fact).
In cycling terms, I think the saying for me would be that my run ceiling and roof are too close? On the bike, my testing revealed that my VO2 max and FTP ratio is right at 1.2 (which I think is good right?). But for the run, seems like my 5k TT is soo close to my Z4?
Does this mean I just can't suffer enough yet for 24-25mins? (ie...I'm not good at suffering that long?). When I've done the 5K testing, I've felt like if I went any faster I was gonna puke.
Sorry to ramble. Does this make any sense to you smarter/runner types? Perhaps when you're slow like me, there's just not much difference in Z4 and 5K TT pace (Z5)? Have I just not been running long enough (by long I mean I'm a "newbie" to running, in grand scheme of triathlon/running....compared to 4+ years of cycling lots of miles)? Will this just come with time? Am I doing this right....trying to run intervals at Z4 as prescribed? Do I HAVE to run slower between intervals? Perhaps I've got the running zone concepts screwed up (is that that different from cycling?). Do I need to read a book (Daniels, something else?)....or stop typing?
Help please!
Comments
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And yes, you really should run slowly in between intervals, the pace doesn't matter that much but must be slow enough to allow you to do the next interval as planned as well as any other intervals in the session. My best advice to you would be to do the workouts as precisely as they say, don't run faster or longer than you need to. EN training really requires sufficient recovery, in between sessions but also in between intervals.
Hey Jeff, as others have suggested, based on what you posted, your VDOT seems wrong. If you have trouble testing, I suggest you enter a local 5k road race (road, as in RUNNING race!!) and really let it rip. Then see how your VDOT comes out.
The issue as to if z1 is too slow is a bit of a different animal. Personally I do not run muchat all at z1, even with a correct VDOT. Too slow to feel comfortable and have my regular run mechanics / stride.
But your issue is one of ensuring you have the correct VDOT I think.
I think you are still learning how to run. I think one of the key indicators of this is your sentence that running faster than 8:00 seems gangly/out of control.
Bad running form could mean you are "suffering" at a much slower pace than you need to. I don't think it's the inherent roof/ceiling thing...I think you could probably run faster with the given effort level that you are able to expend. Running seems so simple and natural, but a lot of people can make a pretty big gain by consciously doing it better.
We can't see you, but I wonder if you're a "clomper" (come down too hard on your front leg each time...like you were carrying a big load on your back) or an overstrider (land on your heel and in front of you). Maybe you have someone nearby who is a faster runner that could give you some pointers?
It sounds a bit silly, but you might want to really think hard during your "strides" runs. Really focus on that perfect form: very slight lean forward, almost certainly forefoot/midfoot landing, feeling light on your feet, arms working but not flailing. If you can get that down at a fast but not sprinting pace, and then do it at a slightly slower pace (like you would run 5K-10K) you may find the VDOT paces working better for you.
I think the VDOT and FTP/TSS models work well in "the middle" but fail to a degree at the low/slow end. That may also be one of the reasons that the slow paces are tough for you.
@William - thanks. I know I don't run "perty". Will stay with the strides and try to look and feel good/swift. I know a fast long distance runner to critique me too.
@Ben - thanks. That makes sense too, esp when combined with the last sentence of William's response.
Thank you all. Will keep at it and trust the koolaid will fuel me! More responses welcome...soaking it up like an amoeba.
Jeff - When you run, try to "scrap the mud off the bottom of your shoe" with each footfall. This helps with your push off, and might help you feel more comfortable at faster speeds. Give it a try at your Z2 pace to see how it feels first.
My two cent, it is going to take time LOTS of time YEARS of time to developed into a " runner " don't get caught up into all the crap I listed above as it distracts from running your natural way. This thread can and might evaluate the shit out of you and you'll be more confused then ever... my disclaimer was this is my 2 cent.
Don't over think Z1......it should feel stoopid easy....there is a thing as too slow that is biomechanically uncomfortable.....if thats 9:00/m then run 8:50?....but it should be relaxed, talkative pace...with little breathing exertion....just cover the time and relax be done.
I will say I have a problem with running easy too--there is a tendency to always feel that it is too slow... ....(and frankly being a triathlete helps me...as a runner I would go out and pound 7 days a week...easy was never easy enough....at least now...I bike or swim and don't even run on days that would have been my run easy days....so it helps me....if that makes sense)
So, my $0.02 is that it would be a good idea to look in form at the higher speeds. The nice thing about exercises like strides is that it gives you the opportunity to gradually build up speed, so you can consciously maintain form as you accelerate.
Maintain form and let the speed come to you, rather than chasing after the speed.
Once upon a time, I could run. Then I stopped. With the help of physical therapy to unbind muscles that, in the therapist's words, felt like " hard plastic", I feel like I'm re-learning it. Right now, one of the most important and productive workouts of the week is those uphill striders--really trying to lean forward, drive the knees, work the arms and get the whole body into it. That has made the other runs easier and the RPE at given paces is gradually falling. I have also gradually felt both legs fire differently--hard to explain, but I can feel the whole posterior chain engaging in a way I couldn't before. Coach Patrick put a couple of good drills on running form in the week 5 video for the OS-you may want to try some of those exercises. I particularly liked the "high hand" drills. YMMV.