Moved the quarq back to the tri bike to see if my #'s from the FTP test on the road bike are legit. Happy to say that I actually felt more powerful on the tri bike. Love the 3x8's! Added a 2x1' for good measure. hehe
Easy run at lunch with bike 5 hours later was exactly what I needed. My HR has been high the last several days and again today on the run. Just couldn't get a slow enough pace on run to get it down so just ran it on RPE which was 30seconds faster than plan.
Then one the WU it was back where it should be, last min of the 12 min z3 was back down so I knew intervals would be good and I didn't have any trouble holding any of them. Also found them easier at higher cadence rather than just trying to muscle them out. Not high cadence, only about 83, but much easier there than mid 70's.
Think if I would have done bike then run results wouldn't have been nearly as good.
I'm really impressed by all your IF's! Mine where somewhere between 0.96 and 0.98 for the 8' intervals and yes it was hard averaging at 284-289 Watt I think I really need to work on increasing my "maximum suffering level" hehe
I'm really impressed by all your IF's! Mine where somewhere between 0.96 and 0.98 for the 8' intervals and yes it was hard averaging at 284-289 Watt
I think I really need to work on increasing my "maximum suffering level" hehe
Either that or:
1. Your "maximum suffering level" on the bike test is higher
2. You came into the OS with a high fitness level and are not experiencing an extremely rapidly-increasing FTP that lots of folks will have in the first 4 weeks
I find that my FTP increase in the first 4-6 weeks is so quick that maxing out at 100% of the week 1 FTP would be sub-optimal for sure. But this is because I come into the OS with really degraded fitness!
I am noticing very high IF's for some of you on your bike sets. So maybe you need to retest your FTP like I do?
Just wanted to remind everyone that the goal is 95-100% for your FT intervals. You don't need to learn to suffer more and push your IF higher than 100%. If the number feels much too easy then it is time to retest OR move your number up on your own. Thoughts?
I agree with Matt and Carrie, though they almost look like they are saying the opposite...I think they are actually looking at two aspects of the same idea.
To the extent that your FTP is legit and you started out in fairly reasonable shape (i.e., have done at least SOME biking in the month before), there is no need to overachieve on the bike intervals. Do it once in a while for pride if you want, but wait until the intervals are 2 x 20.... Overachieving too much is a way for a lot of us to get put in a hole. For many folks, it's easier to get in a hole on VO2 than FTP, but YMMV.
To the extent that you either know your FTP is quite low compared to where it's been, or that you haven't done biking in a while or you are new to power intervals, THEN you may find yourself overachieving naturally and quickly.
Matt knows his pattern, and if you look at his post on his test, you'll see his test was down, relative to his racing season. It's not unreasonable for him to be doing 1.0x IF intervals for a little while while he gets quickly back into some baseline of "shape". Similarly Carl knows his test is low, relative to where he was...and has already said that maybe it was a bad test.
For whatever reason, my FTP test was BETTER than where I was at the end of last racing season. That's partly an artifact of being inside, I know, but the point is I know that my FTP is a lot closer to my baseline "in shape" number.
In a month or so, both Matt and I will be "in shape", and the gains will come slower and will come from genuine improvement, not just getting back the ground we always are on.
First year people in the OS are likely to have the biggest gains. 15% FTP improvement from first test to last test is pretty normal for people that haven't done this kind of work before. Some people make ENORMOUS gains, but mostly that is because they are just learning how to ride hard...and some of that muscle was already there, going unused. :-)
So my bottom line: If you're like me, where you know that you're in decent condition to start with and the number is where it should be, overachieving significantly is probably riskier than it's worth...but more risky for VO2 than for FTP. If you are new, or know you have some rapid gains to make, then some overachieving on the FTP is almost to be expected. but watch out as the intervals get longer and more demanding.
@Chris - SwimAtlanta? I was part of the original SwimAtlanta team back in the late 70's and have vivid memories of the first pool they ever built on Snapfinger Road. Before they built their pool, we worked out at a neighborhood pool and slid on ice from the locker room to the pool during the winter! Boy, have they grown since then. Tell Chris Davis I said hello. My kids swim now so I see Chis in Atlanta when we travel there for meets.
I have a question about using the Computrainer. Are you guys using Erg Mode or Slope Mode? I found myself vasilating between the two during the workout. For some unknown reason, I seem to like going into Slope Mode during the FTP sets and Erg mode during the down time sections. I am curious as to what you guys are doing. My sets went well and actually felt good. The run was interesting. I felt like I must have looked like the Mr. Tudball character that Tim Conway played in The Carol Burnette show but it got better after half a mile or so.
Did bike WKO with TR early AM yesterday before work-only had time for 50 minutes. After the standard 12 min wu at 65%, 3x8s: .98,.98 and 1.0 then 5 min at .8. I have been doing the work in aero since saturday as I got a really great fit on 1/5 on my tri bike and my fitter challlenged me by saying, "you won't get faster in aero unless you train yourself that way!" Got the brick done in the evening-motivation after a long day was my dogs. I looked over at the couch and said, "who wants to run?" and got trampled by enthusiastic partners.
Thank you William for your thoughts on FTP intervals. So should I just keep my FT at the test from 2 weeks ago and wait to retest at 8 weeks? I would prefer not to retest but will if it is advised. Right now the number feels a little low. Not much though.
I did the Saturday ride today with Tom Glynn on the trainer at his house.
Total 90 minutes at .85 18 min warm up 2 x 10 @ 1.02 (173W), 1.03 ( 174W) 2 x 15 @ .89 ( 150W) 12 min cool down
The workout was awesome. I felt like it was a nice strong workout. It never felt too hard.
@Carrie - One reason I like Golden Cheetah and its CP plot is that you can kind of watch your FTP move slowly in between tests for cases like this. You know for sure you had "issues" at the beginning, so you're probably a bit low compared to where you know you can be.
Looks to me like you're shooting for a 20% improvement from the start (170 to 205), and I'm guessing you know the 205 is doable, but probably a stretch. If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking at doing what feels right for the next few weeks (which looks like it's 1.0x for now...after all, you're a vet) and then do the following:
Take the Sunday of week 3 a little easy. Instead of 3 x 1 mi and a 75-90 minute run, make it 2 x 1 mi and 45-60 min. (And similarly, don't beat yourself up running on Saturday of week 3)
On Tuesday of week 4, do the new "5 + 20" test again.
The nice thing about the 5+20 test is that I don't think it should crush the next few days as badly as the old 42 minute test does. If you just take it a little easy for a day or two before doing it, substituting that "test" as a workout for the scheduled 2 x 15' at .95-1.00 FTP isn't that huge a change...it will just be one more hard FTP workout. Knowing you don't have to do the 5K test a couple days later will also take some more mental stress out of it.
@Mark- yep, they have a super pool in Lawrenceville (Sugarloaf) that I try to get to on my days off. Saline pool, long and short course, deep water, Olympic wall of fame stuff, etc. I know faces but not too many names cuz I'm a drop in. I expect I'll be out there a little more this year cuz I've put swimming improvement a little higher up on my list.
So my bottom line: If you're like me, where you know that you're in decent condition to start with and the number is where it should be, overachieving significantly is probably riskier than it's worth...but more risky for VO2 than for FTP. If you are new, or know you have some rapid gains to make, then some overachieving on the FTP is almost to be expected. but watch out as the intervals get longer and more demanding.
You are absolutely right - I was already in a pretty good shape when OS started as I was doing another (more volume based - 12h/week) plan for 8 weeks before where my FTP already got up significatly! (from about 265 to 285W).
I will go with your suggestions and just keep in the defined power-zones and use RPE as a "go further" indicator.
Today's first set of VO2 30/30s will tell me another chapter of the story I think ... already a bit nervous about it but I'm actually better in doing short very hard work
Big was good. Way over my VO2 number and had to settle down. Going to change my screen, so that I can see my number. The garmin holds onto the lap time for 15seconds and because it sits in the top middle of the screen I can not fully see my number. I know not to overreach, so I will change that and move the cadence above. On to do my swim drill workout (I am a very slow swimmer and now I know why- oh what a underwater vid can do for ya)
Done. Not sure I could have done another set. My body hasn't adapted to the hard run the day befoe a VO2 ride. Looking forward to the day off tomorrow.
Got started at 4:15 this morning. Did the 25' WU, then Vo2 bike WKO. Felt really good doing slightly higher than 288 Vo2. Basically did the first 3 x (30/30) @ 290/160, 4th set @ 295/165, 5th 300/170, and 6th 305/175. Finished out the 22nd mile @ 200 because out of time. My 25' WU was done at power levels 140/190/140/200/160 for each official bike WU segment as prescribed.
If I'm riding a little above my Vo2 of 288, should I be riding at higher power during easy than I've listed? I'm thinking the easy power is okay since 65% is calculated on my FTP of 236. On the FTP WKO's I'm holding right where I tested - using my AP as my FTP since I felt I could handle the 236 as well as the 5% less of 224. I'm not throwing in any swim WKO's currently and taking my rest days, so I feel good currently with the notice of being careful not to burn out on this being my first OS. Maybe not as consistent as the training plan, but I've always pushed myself with interval work on my stationary bike in the past. Always great reading everyone's helpful input on other people questions, so thanks to a lot of you for that info.
Fun VO2 sets today. Still getting used to the 30/30s. I felt I got more out of the 1 minute on / 1 minute off sets. Just psychological I'm sure. Anyway hit my numbers and crawled off bike for breakfast ;-) Good luck to the rest of the folks today.
@Fred - that's one reason I personally prefer the 1'/1' (as Ian alludes to) to the 30"/30". I can do the 30/30s better on the road for some reason. But I almost always overshoot the power for the first several seconds on these intervals. If my goal in life were to notch up the highest possible powers, then then the 30/30s would be the way to go for me. But since I tend to have a little trouble with intensity-related overachieving on the bike, I make a point of doing little things to try to keep myself under better control. Not doing these as 30/30 is one thing that helps me. But I'm certainly not telling anyone else not to do the workouts as proscribed.... just letting out some ideas on my own version of self-coaching. :-)
@ William, I could choose to do the Vo2 @ 283 since I use an indoor Cybex 750C stationary bike and I select the power. I don't have power on my tri bike or use my bike on an indoor trainer, even though I do have one. I use the advance setting on my Cybex and set the power levels as I go. I keep track of my HR from testing and WKO's to have a little control over my outdoor WKO's. I tested on my Cybex and tri bike the first week. I got my HR up a lot higher on the Cybex than I did outdoors. My Cybex power may be way different than yours and other power meters, but it should be fairly accurate for my use, but not comparable to real power meter devices. I definitely go faster outdoors than I do indoors. I'm sure I'm going to see some new tri bike speed outdoors soon. I use to do a 20/10 crossfit WKO for 32 intervals, so the 30/30 has been good for me. I'm sure the 1/1 is nice also. I think mixing it up is a good thing so your body and mind doesn't get too use to something. I use to also do power increases every mile or by time up until I can't hold the watt any longer, then back down to recover, then back up again and try to get as close to the highest watt again. Probably do 3 sets like that. The set watt selected is a nice way to train and try out different cadences producing the same watts. The Cybex is about a $2,500 bike, so I think it does a pretty good job. Downfall of course - not my tri bike setup. I wore out my previous indoor bike, and it and this Cybex still help a lot before I'm out on my bike for the longer rides and my body adjusted to the road.
30/30's done this morning. Tough but for some reason I like this workout. Was a little over on some of them, but felt pretty good about most of the efforts. Got a little carried away on the very last one. This morning's movie was Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol. Also did the EN warmup, which I'm starting to like. HR during the last part fo the Z3 portion is usually ~140. Lastly, I dropped my chain for the first time ever on the trainer while shifting to the big ring for the standing part of the WU. Never had that problem on the road or trainer, could be that I don't clean the chain as often as I should? Oh, and thank you so much to Stark and all those who helped get the OS on trainer road. Very helpful!
@ William you are high knowledge. In reading your input, and because I can select wattage, I should not overachieve on the Vo2 as much, but a little okay on the FTP WKO. The FTP WKO's are harder for me. I think once I test again after training this way, my #'s will go up and then the overachieving will diminish.
30/30s weren't bad at all. Got in 21' of bonus Z3 work after the MS - the last 10mins of the Z3 work was challenging. I really had to push to maintain output for that last 10 hours I mean minutes !
pregame- good night's rest, small chckn/egg burrito, coffee 1.5 hrs before, Hydration and gel 10' before. 9/10 mojo- a little tired right before but slapped myself in the face with some Linkin Park and raised the mojo a few notches. 7/10 execution- Nailed it. not just hit the targets but coulda stepped on their throats and crushed 'em. chose to stay in ranges cuz I gotz big rides this weekend. 10/10 postgame- good recovery drink & food, feet up for 15', icing the calf, might even take a 30' nap in a bit. 10/10
Comments
1: 240w VI=1.0 IF=1.01
2: 246w VI=1.0 IF=1.03
3: 255w VI=1.0 IF=1.07
total: NP 222, IF 0.93
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/W3FCYFORUVOLPHZ5LLYXNCY7PI
Then one the WU it was back where it should be, last min of the 12 min z3 was back down so I knew intervals would be good and I didn't have any trouble holding any of them. Also found them easier at higher cadence rather than just trying to muscle them out. Not high cadence, only about 83, but much easier there than mid 70's.
Think if I would have done bike then run results wouldn't have been nearly as good.
I think I really need to work on increasing my "maximum suffering level" hehe
Either that or:
1. Your "maximum suffering level" on the bike test is higher
2. You came into the OS with a high fitness level and are not experiencing an extremely rapidly-increasing FTP that lots of folks will have in the first 4 weeks
I find that my FTP increase in the first 4-6 weeks is so quick that maxing out at 100% of the week 1 FTP would be sub-optimal for sure. But this is because I come into the OS with really degraded fitness!
Just wanted to remind everyone that the goal is 95-100% for your FT intervals. You don't need to learn to suffer more and push your IF higher than 100%. If the number feels much too easy then it is time to retest OR move your number up on your own. Thoughts?
Carrie
No overacheiving for me .95/.96/.95 and they were tuff.
Regarding overachieving on the FTP intervals:
Matt knows his pattern, and if you look at his post on his test, you'll see his test was down, relative to his racing season. It's not unreasonable for him to be doing 1.0x IF intervals for a little while while he gets quickly back into some baseline of "shape". Similarly Carl knows his test is low, relative to where he was...and has already said that maybe it was a bad test.
For whatever reason, my FTP test was BETTER than where I was at the end of last racing season. That's partly an artifact of being inside, I know, but the point is I know that my FTP is a lot closer to my baseline "in shape" number.
In a month or so, both Matt and I will be "in shape", and the gains will come slower and will come from genuine improvement, not just getting back the ground we always are on.
First year people in the OS are likely to have the biggest gains. 15% FTP improvement from first test to last test is pretty normal for people that haven't done this kind of work before. Some people make ENORMOUS gains, but mostly that is because they are just learning how to ride hard...and some of that muscle was already there, going unused. :-)
So my bottom line: If you're like me, where you know that you're in decent condition to start with and the number is where it should be, overachieving significantly is probably riskier than it's worth...but more risky for VO2 than for FTP. If you are new, or know you have some rapid gains to make, then some overachieving on the FTP is almost to be expected. but watch out as the intervals get longer and more demanding.
@Chris - SwimAtlanta? I was part of the original SwimAtlanta team back in the late 70's and have vivid memories of the first pool they ever built on Snapfinger Road. Before they built their pool, we worked out at a neighborhood pool and slid on ice from the locker room to the pool during the winter! Boy, have they grown since then. Tell Chris Davis I said hello. My kids swim now so I see Chis in Atlanta when we travel there for meets.
I have a question about using the Computrainer. Are you guys using Erg Mode or Slope Mode? I found myself vasilating between the two during the workout. For some unknown reason, I seem to like going into Slope Mode during the FTP sets and Erg mode during the down time sections. I am curious as to what you guys are doing. My sets went well and actually felt good. The run was interesting. I felt like I must have looked like the Mr. Tudball character that Tim Conway played in The Carol Burnette show but it got better after half a mile or so.
Well-put, Professor Jenks!
I did the Saturday ride today with Tom Glynn on the trainer at his house.
Total 90 minutes at .85
18 min warm up
2 x 10 @ 1.02 (173W), 1.03 ( 174W)
2 x 15 @ .89 ( 150W)
12 min cool down
The workout was awesome. I felt like it was a nice strong workout. It never felt too hard.
@Carrie - One reason I like Golden Cheetah and its CP plot is that you can kind of watch your FTP move slowly in between tests for cases like this. You know for sure you had "issues" at the beginning, so you're probably a bit low compared to where you know you can be.
Looks to me like you're shooting for a 20% improvement from the start (170 to 205), and I'm guessing you know the 205 is doable, but probably a stretch. If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking at doing what feels right for the next few weeks (which looks like it's 1.0x for now...after all, you're a vet) and then do the following:
The nice thing about the 5+20 test is that I don't think it should crush the next few days as badly as the old 42 minute test does. If you just take it a little easy for a day or two before doing it, substituting that "test" as a workout for the scheduled 2 x 15' at .95-1.00 FTP isn't that huge a change...it will just be one more hard FTP workout. Knowing you don't have to do the 5K test a couple days later will also take some more mental stress out of it.
Just my thought!
Wm
You are absolutely right - I was already in a pretty good shape when OS started as I was doing another (more volume based - 12h/week) plan for 8 weeks before where my FTP already got up significatly! (from about 265 to 285W).
I will go with your suggestions and just keep in the defined power-zones and use RPE as a "go further" indicator.
Today's first set of VO2 30/30s will tell me another chapter of the story I think ... already a bit nervous about it but I'm actually better in doing short very hard work
Done. Not sure I could have done another set. My body hasn't adapted to the hard run the day befoe a VO2 ride. Looking forward to the day off tomorrow.
http://tpks.ws/wzI0
Got started at 4:15 this morning. Did the 25' WU, then Vo2 bike WKO. Felt really good doing slightly higher than 288 Vo2. Basically did the first 3 x (30/30) @ 290/160, 4th set @ 295/165, 5th 300/170, and 6th 305/175. Finished out the 22nd mile @ 200 because out of time. My 25' WU was done at power levels 140/190/140/200/160 for each official bike WU segment as prescribed.
If I'm riding a little above my Vo2 of 288, should I be riding at higher power during easy than I've listed? I'm thinking the easy power is okay since 65% is calculated on my FTP of 236. On the FTP WKO's I'm holding right where I tested - using my AP as my FTP since I felt I could handle the 236 as well as the 5% less of 224. I'm not throwing in any swim WKO's currently and taking my rest days, so I feel good currently with the notice of being careful not to burn out on this being my first OS. Maybe not as consistent as the training plan, but I've always pushed myself with interval work on my stationary bike in the past. Always great reading everyone's helpful input on other people questions, so thanks to a lot of you for that info.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/...Oe1E.email
Failed to remember or read correctly my Vo2 was tested @ 283. I had 288 stuck in my head.
@ William, I could choose to do the Vo2 @ 283 since I use an indoor Cybex 750C stationary bike and I select the power. I don't have power on my tri bike or use my bike on an indoor trainer, even though I do have one. I use the advance setting on my Cybex and set the power levels as I go. I keep track of my HR from testing and WKO's to have a little control over my outdoor WKO's. I tested on my Cybex and tri bike the first week. I got my HR up a lot higher on the Cybex than I did outdoors. My Cybex power may be way different than yours and other power meters, but it should be fairly accurate for my use, but not comparable to real power meter devices. I definitely go faster outdoors than I do indoors. I'm sure I'm going to see some new tri bike speed outdoors soon. I use to do a 20/10 crossfit WKO for 32 intervals, so the 30/30 has been good for me. I'm sure the 1/1 is nice also. I think mixing it up is a good thing so your body and mind doesn't get too use to something. I use to also do power increases every mile or by time up until I can't hold the watt any longer, then back down to recover, then back up again and try to get as close to the highest watt again. Probably do 3 sets like that. The set watt selected is a nice way to train and try out different cadences producing the same watts. The Cybex is about a $2,500 bike, so I think it does a pretty good job. Downfall of course - not my tri bike setup. I wore out my previous indoor bike, and it and this Cybex still help a lot before I'm out on my bike for the longer rides and my body adjusted to the road.
30/30's done this morning. Tough but for some reason I like this workout. Was a little over on some of them, but felt pretty good about most of the efforts. Got a little carried away on the very last one. This morning's movie was Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol. Also did the EN warmup, which I'm starting to like. HR during the last part fo the Z3 portion is usually ~140. Lastly, I dropped my chain for the first time ever on the trainer while shifting to the big ring for the standing part of the WU. Never had that problem on the road or trainer, could be that I don't clean the chain as often as I should? Oh, and thank you so much to Stark and all those who helped get the OS on trainer road. Very helpful!
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/162999
@ William you are high knowledge. In reading your input, and because I can select wattage, I should not overachieve on the Vo2 as much, but a little okay on the FTP WKO. The FTP WKO's are harder for me. I think once I test again after training this way, my #'s will go up and then the overachieving will diminish.
30/30s weren't bad at all. Got in 21' of bonus Z3 work after the MS - the last 10mins of the Z3 work was challenging. I really had to push to maintain output for that last 10 hours I mean minutes !
pregame- good night's rest, small chckn/egg burrito, coffee 1.5 hrs before, Hydration and gel 10' before. 9/10
mojo- a little tired right before but slapped myself in the face with some Linkin Park and raised the mojo a few notches. 7/10
execution- Nailed it. not just hit the targets but coulda stepped on their throats and crushed 'em. chose to stay in ranges cuz I gotz big rides this weekend. 10/10
postgame- good recovery drink & food, feet up for 15', icing the calf, might even take a 30' nap in a bit. 10/10
get your focus on and go crush it, will ya?!
Nearly just the same feeling from my 30/30s - some of them were challenging but none of them felt hard!
I also added another 15min of upper Z3 (IF 0.84 / AP 248Watt) and I've to tell that just felt almost more like "Steady"