ZERO progress in run results - need a bit of support

ht001

I did my vDot test this AM, one day ahead of when it was prescribed on my 12 week IM plan which officially starts tomorrow. I did this test by myself on a track with a steady light snow coming down. (not mentioning that as an excuse, just giving you the setting)

At this point I think I suck at executing these tests. Either that or I just suck at running. My vDot HAS NOT MOVED in any of the tests I've done. I know that it is best to try to do these tests in a race setting, or barring that learn how to pace it appropriately. The latter seems to be what I need to focus on race or no race!

What's funny is that before I start the test I go through a strategy in my mind to start at a certain pace, and then negative split. When I get out there I seem to forget my plan and immediately mess it up. Perhaps all I need to do is actually work the dang plan. What do you all do to pace your vDot tests?



I haven't changed the paces that I'm trainining at for 8 weeks, by continuing to train at the same paces, am I effectively putting a cap on my run improvement potential? Or have I run into my natural limit?

I'm really bummed about my inability to put up any improvement. Especially because last year at the end of OS 2009 I was 4 points higher!! I haven't even reached where I was last year.

If I'd been slacking on the work throughout OS this year and not gotten it done I would at least have an explanation. I've done all the work though!!! What am I doing wrong?

Done whining.

ht001

Alright...a few more facts :

Initial vDot test at start of OS = 42
Week 8 vDot test = 44
Today's vDot test = 42.6

Seriously...what in the H am I doing wrong. Last year I finished OS at 47...for the love....thought I could improve on that this year. Instead I seem to be starting from scratch.

Guess, I'm really not done.

kurshing

I am a noob, but, one thing that I have 'gathered' in my short time is the importance of controlling variables.  Did you make sure to test your vDot on the same track, in similar weather, at a similar time of day, with similar recovery, similar levels of personal and professional stress, and similar nutrition?  Also, I am inclined to believe that our bodies work in stages, where we grow and grow, and then reach a period of time where we have to continue the work without results being a obvious.

I have never had the feeling you're expressing since I have been with EN but, I have been through a phase of limited/no realized results, and I know it can be VERY frustrating.  Keep the faith...I am confident that RnP will be able to diagnose the issue and prescribe solutions if the rest of us can't!

Good luck!

Fratto

I am also new around these parts but I agree with all the variables that could have gone into play. I had a few similar experiences though when I used to run track. It seemed like no matter how much I worked I never got faster and I began to get very frustrated and almost lost my spot on the relay team to people who were getting faster and catching me. But after a little time I came off the plateau and had a significant time improvement. Sometimes the plateaus are frustrating but it makes it all that more satisfying to see the improvements.  wish I could be more help!

Norton

 Olivia,

You are not alone is seeming to stagnate during the OS. I was fit to be tied last year after having done all that work and not seeing improvement in my tests. 

We carry a lot of accumulated fatigue through the OS and for many of us this just kills the test results. If you chose to rest up for a few days I'm sure your test results would be something far more satisfying. Not all of us can absorb these workouts as written. 

Kristen_Olson

Olivia,
Do you have a more mentally stimulating place to do your VDOT, like a 5K race, or at least someplace that is not a track? The mental effort of knowing that you have to hold X pace (or faster) for X more laps could be a big stressor. I know you have a lot more speed in you!

mattsull

How have your running zones felt in training? Do you feel challenged week after week on your runs, especailly the TP stuff? Do you feel like you could go harder sometimes?

Michele Cellai

R u using a Garmin 305 on the track? My experience has been that they do not record accurately around the oval.

Paul Hough

I think Steve's advice above is spot on. I don't know about others, but there is NO way...NONE...that I will ever test as well in solo setting as opposed to a race. I have a significant race gear that is simply not available to me in a training setting no matter how hard I am hammering by myself. So for me, vDoT tests outside of a race offer only a guideline into my true fitness. Another problem I have in South Florida is that summer tests are worthless because if you hold constant fitness year round, there is still no way that you will test as well in the heat and humidity of summer as you will on a cool dry day in the winter. So I have to evaluate results based on those factors...race or no race...and the weather conditions.

Now, as a longtime runner who has lived all over the place, I would not advise anyone to run fast on a track with snow. It's OK to train at a regular pace in lanes 4 or out, but if you are going quick and there is a light snow cap on the track, you are putting a slight twist on your left knee on the turns because your shoe is not sticking to the track and that continual minor slip can make you susceptible to a knee injury on the inside leg. One of my many lessons learned over four decades of competitive running is that if there is snow on the ground, then just run...no speed work until you have a clear dry surface!

Mike B

Two thoughts - First, following Matt's theme, if I am feeling good, I try to push my TP intervals a notch faster that pace. If you feel like you have capacity, you may want to try tht.

Second, I think accurate pace data may be very helpful to you. As Michele indicates, Garmin's are not good for track workouts, or routes with a lot of curves. If I am not doing a race, I do my testing on a 1/10th mile indoor track, which stinks for the joints, but gives me a data point every 1/10 mile. I use my last test pace to set my starting pace target for the new test, and start pushing it faster if I can. Each 1/10th, I can make sure I'm not overdoing it early, as well as get quick feedback as I try to push harder. Once the daylight is back at workout times, I'll switch to outdoor tests, and use my Garmin to monitor my pace (much easier than all the math.)  Oh, did I mention, I'm a data geek? It gives me something to think about other than if I'm going to woof!

At the end of the day, work works. Keep following the plan and pushing yourself, and I bet you'll find your way off the plateau!

ht001

I am using a Garmin. This is my first year using this tool instead of the Polar footpod dealio. I have noticed that on a track I actually end up running what seems like .2 miles further than what my count of laps on the track suggests. Odd. I did also notice the same amount of additional distance in the 4 mile turkey trot I did on TG. Funny, my polar was always dead on....maybe I should switch back??

I tested on the same track at the beginning of OS. Didn't use it for my mid-OS vDot tests. So maybe there is something there in the consistent conditions thing.

WRT rest...I'm coming off transition week. Lots of rest. Unless it just isn't enough or not the right kind. Unfortunately I can't claim the "if only i were rested thing."

Thanks for the advice. I'm still really bummed and surprised. I'm ultimately not that much faster than what I was coming off my months worth of lay off followoing my accident last year. Guess I do wonder if there's something that doesn't work for me with the training...will reserve that thought for later.

ht001

Oh yeah, and when I'm running on a flat course during the training, or on the TM (adjusted by 1.5) I often feel like I could go faster. If there is a bit of a rise, or a true hill, not so much. Maybe I've just been to inconsistent with "the where" of my training this OS??? Gosh though, for the most part the same section of bike path near my house is where I've run....Could one or two runs/month on ever so slightly different terrain have that much impact in training?

Dave Tallo

Olivia, have you tested at distances other than 5k?   I recall a few posters who had better luck at 8, 10 or even 21.1 k time trials.  

Coach Patrick

Olivia - While not everyone improves the run during the OS, they are getting fitter/stronger. But it is odd that you have dropped in the run. What has happened on the bike side of things...are you fitter or also less fit? Are you running at same time of day as in the past (as in last year)? That can have an affect. Finally, whats' the story with your execution? You have a plan but you trash it everytime you test? What did you do differently during your "best" test result if anything? Thanks for taking the time to answer....

P

Scott Alexander

My latest garmin 305 is ALWAYS .1 miles longer than the course, regardless of the course distance and regardless of bike/run. It took me a bit to discover that, but luckily running the same routes over the years made it easier than always wondering.

ht001

Good questions, coach P. I’ve felt pretty strong on the bike at this point. Although the real proof of that will come this week in the FT test which I think is scheduled for Weds. I did, however, have some issues during the V02 max block because of the increased volume of those Saturday rides. Those rides took a lot out of me and definitely impacted my energy for running. That different format for those workouts really seemed to call for a different nutrition strategy and I never did seem to get that figured out. They also called for more recovery and I struggled there. Come to think of it, I often had to cut short the Brick runs and even skipped one of those as I tried to recover.

Workout times are kind of different. Usually very early in the AM on weekdays, and then later in the AM on weekends. I did the test at about 9 AM. I guess that could be an issue.

I guess the pacing strategy is the one controllable piece in this whole equation. When I had a successful 10 mile race/test near the tail end of last year’s OS I had an approach for handling the event and I stuck to it. I didn’t have a good test at the very end of OS last year though. Went out to do a five miler and held back too much in the beginning so I finished with a kick, but didn’t improve from the 10 mile race to the 5 mile race (one month apart). So I maybe it’s the pacing. I think when I start these short distance runs that I must think I will be faster than I really am. And I think the word “test” must get under my skin in a strange way. You would think that after the poor track record with this approach that I would learn. Maybe this is finally the lesson. But at what cost!?!? Nothing I can do now, to make up the lost opportunity to train at whatever level I didn’t achieve due to faulty tests. That’s depressing. I also would think that even with a poorly executed test that there would be a slight improvement. Even a glimmer.

Wondering now if I should try to test again in a week…maybe instead of or within one of the run workouts. I’m guessing that’s not advised. Maybe I should just sign up for a couple of local races…but I get whacked out about any impact that will have to the plan. Thoughts on that?

On the bright side, my swimming feels great…for now…but the test in the pool doesn’t come for two more weeks…

charris

Good comments above as usual.  I think you're absolutely right to question things - but mainly as it relates to learning lessons for future use.  For now though, recognize that it's largely water under the bridge.  You are where you are - don't worry too much - move on from here, but realize that you almost certainly improved your fitness more than you think you did - the gains just don't always show themselves in tests.

 

The positive thing is that you've realized you have an area for potential improvement - pacing/execution.  You can work on improving that from here on in and you'll see great gains on race day just from smarter execution.

 

You absolutely can screw up a test (and a race!) by going too hard at the beginning.  I know because, uhm, a friend of a friend does that from time to time.

 

Put another way - the difference between a 42 and 47 VDOT in terms of your predicted IM run time is ~20 minutes - not that huge when you consider you can easily lose way more than that with poor execution.

 

Do you (or how do you) use your Garmin during your testing (e.g how often do you look at it, do you look at lap pace, etc.)?  I don't want to be a slave to it so I've tried to get away from staring at it during workouts and now mainly use it during runs as an occasional sanity check for my RPE, but I absolutely find it valuable during testing - as a whip when I am going too slow, but perhaps more importantly as a stupid-meter when I am going too fast at the start.  RPE is great, but it is far too easy to fool yourself during racing/testing.  The disclaimers in this thread about Garmin pace accuracy are definitely valid, but if you're careful about how you use it, it can definitely help.

 

Coach Patrick

Craig's got it right that execution (of a test and on race day) can have a massive advantage. You might want to poll the team on how to handle the 5ks. Sounds as though fatigue has been adding up for you though, WRT being able to complete workouts, so that could be a factor. Intersted to see how the bike test goes, however, a test does not your fitness make. IOW, if I ride at 320 for all my FTP intervals, feel good, go out to ride a 325 to get faster but am fatigued and blow up to a 305, that doesn't mean that I am a 305 athlete now. Got it? Assign the weight you want to the results, good or bad, but know that getting the work done is what matters.

P

ht001

Great advice and perspective Craig and Coach P. It's true, nothing to do now but keep moving forward. I have to be getting fitter and whether that's measurable or not because of the way I do the test does not mean that the fitness isn't there. I do know now, though that I absolutely have to train myself to pace the next test appropriately...and stick to the plan. It's funny that I would screw that up so often, given how good I am at giving other people advice about determining an execution plan and sticking to it. I have a guy at work who has adopted me as an unofficial run coach (no, I didn't ask for the honor, but he thought I seemed reasonable as a giver of advice) and I've counseled him on the benefits and risks associated with doing or not doing that. HA HA...do as I say not as I do right.

I appreciate the thoughts and advice, team!!

On the plus side, I did a little swim T-pace test today and executed perfectly! What the what!?? So I'm not a total lost cause!

Norton

 Olivia,

Do you have a buddy that is a bit faster that could pace you on the track to a successful 5k? This could serve two purposes: a better overall pacing and a distracting whip at the end when you need it the most.

Cary Blanco

Olivia,

I had a bad week 8 run test just two days ago - Patrick said it's not uncommon. I'm writing it off as a bad day. Don't get discouraged! I'm looking ahead, and I know I'll do the next one better, as will you.

Tomer T

Aside from tracking progress, the (other) main purpose of the test is to adjust training level zones. If you feel that the test did not reflect your actual level, then go ahead and adjust your zones. The real progress test will come in your next race.

I personally don't do running tests at all (too much injury) . I prefer to test my legs in a local 5k.