Bike Training/ Pushing through the burn

new2703

Not sure how to put this so I'll explain what is happening.  When doing my FTP sets 2x20 minutes find it difficult to push through the burn in quads.  Typical warm up length is 20-25 minutes mixing Z1 and Z4 intervals.   LTHR is 165.  First set ride 90-95% of FTP and HR is Average HR is 138.  I ride the first set at 90-95% because legs take time to get going.  Second set ride 95% and AVG heart rate is 143.  Part of me feels like its mental.  When I start to feel the burn, it turns a switch on in my brain and says better  not push to hard or not going to make it.  Problem is I don't feel I've worked hard from a cardio vascular perspective.  Hope this isn't to confusing.   Is this a sign of overtraining?  Am I just a mental wimp?  Thoughts?

nigelfranklyn

I would say a mental whimp! I have the same problem man. I have turn to everything to trying to distract me from the work. I change hand positions every minute, I take sips of water, I turn to music up as I approach the wall...... Also, the nutriotion really helps. So per the core diet race and training fuel plan, I take a gel pack 15 mintues before and then I take one every 30 minutes. I now tea

nigelfranklyn

I would say a mental whimp! I have the same problem man. I have turn to everything to trying to distract me from the work. I change hand positions every minute, I take sips of water, I turn to music up as I approach the wall...... Also, the nutriotion really helps. So per the core diet race and training fuel plan, I take a gel pack 15 mintues before and then I take one every 30 minutes. I now tea

Coach Rich

Recommend you:

• Shorten the warmup
• Shorten or change the intervals so that you're doing both at 95-100% vs 90-95% for the first one. For example, rather than doing 2 x 20 do 3 x 12 (close enough) or something similar.
• Mentally, assign greater importance to these sessions. These are truly your most important workouts in your goal of "getting faster on the bike." Music, count how many of these you have left until your A-race, etc, but mentally prepare for these. 

tim cronk

@John I'm glad Coach R suggested shorter intervals but keeping the total the same because this is what I was thinking but didnt want to say. Also try a higher cadence , higher cadence is more cardio vs slower cadence being more muscular.... I can vary the feeling of an FTP interval from cooking my lungs with 100rpm to feeling my legs burn with 90rpm.... the HR varies 3-5 from the different cadences as well! Also you are capable of so much more than you think you are!

Dave Campbell

Try a higher cadence too John. As Tim points out, I too can shift the quad burn to a lung burn by changing cadence at the same wattage. Sounds like your not utilizing as much cardio capacity as you may have available and save the quads.

[Deleted User]

GREAT thread guys! I appreciate the suggestions.

Kkaufer

John - I can't speak to the physical adjustments that are recommended, i.e. adjusting rpms/gear etc, but on the mental side, I just say: embrace it - I usually play mind tricks with myself to get over the initial 'hump': e.g. I'll be beating Lance Armstrong at the TdF (clean, i might add...), or I'm back-stopping the Boston Bruins in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals, or winning olympic gold medals ... you get my drift. I think there's a real term for this, 'disassociation'. Works everytime for me!

rmiller

In the same vein as what Kate mentioned - when the burn comes, I figure that it where the real meat of the workout is - the part that is going to make me get better. Of course there is a balance of effort and sustainability. So when I feel it, I try to embrace it.

Also, I find that not all burns are created equal. If I go out too fast and reach the burn, I fatigue much faster than if I build up more slowly and 'sneak up' on it. So on 20' FTP intervals, I'll spend a full 40-60 seconds building up from rest power to FTP. I also find that after a couple minutes of burn, it kinda disappears into the background and its arguments to my brain to stop become quieter. Still there, but quieter. And.. distraction. Watching TV, music, whatever.

Joseph Lombardi

 I have recently started occasionally breaking up the 2x 20 into 8x5(1') 4x10(2') etc. (you can see correspondingly shortening any recovery as well)...it has paid huge dividends as I seem to be riding smoother and maintaining higher overall FTP throughout the workout...

It doesn't seem that you are getting your HR into the Z4 zone...for whatever reason...with a 165 LTHR I think you should be higher than 138 when riding  @ 90-95%...????

 

 

 

new2703

Thanks for the input guys. I'll try to adjust cadence. Typically try to keep at 85-88 which is race cadence. The interesting thing is as the set goes on I usually get stronger, for both sets. Just feel like HR should be higher compared to burn in thighs. Wasn't sure if strength was just lacking or need to work harder

new2703

Is it possible to have more cardio fitness compared to strength?

MattAaronson

The thing that strikes me as really problematic is that you're not hitting z4 on the first set but you are on the second. Rich suggests to shorten the warmup, which I agree with (15 min should be enough for most people), but I'd increase the warmup INTENSITY to get ready to hit 95% on the first interval. The fact that you can hit 95% on the second one truthfully tells me you may just need to man-up and get it done.

As to the question about cardio vs. strength, this is sort of like the question of "ceiling" (VO2) vs. "roof" (FTP), and in that case the answer is yes. That's probably why some people are saying to go with a higher cadence...you will shift the work and tax the cardio a bit more.

new2703

@matt. I was just thinking that. Typical wu 5 min easy 5 @ z1, 3-4@ 30 on/ 30 off, 2-3 @z1, 5-10 @z2/3, 2@z1.

ezellrh

Another technique is to go into a workout with a "if I pop, so be it" attitude. When your head starts to tell you it's too hard, don't listen and keep going. I think you'll surprise yourself and not actually explode. The next time, you'll know from a mental stand point that you can in fact do it. If you had told me I was going to do a 20/20/15 FTP set at the beginning of the OS, I would have told you that you were crazy. However, now that I'm on the other side of that workout, I (and my head) know that it can be done. YMMV>

Al Truscott

Collectively, what a great set of advice:

• Rich... Commit to the goal of finishing the workout first, just as firmly as you will commit to race day goals.
• nigel, Kate ... Physical and mental games and distractions
• Matt, Roy ... You are capable of so much more than you can imagine
• Me ... Don't let your perceived (and artificial) "superior" CV vs muscle strength be a limiter, rather, it is an opportunity to make improvement where most needed

Jim Yanoschik

John, I think that there are really 2 ways to deal with the burn. Psychologists would call it two primary foci. Internal or external. What do you focus on? External focus would be music, watching videos, Trainer Road software etc. Internal focus would be concentrating on your breathing and relaxing with each breath. Or paying attention to the pressure on your shoes, making sure your technique is proper, etc. Most of the time in races you really do both. Aid stations with music, seeing family members, crowds would be external focus. When you out alone you focus is on technique, breathing, the old fart that just geezered you . These sets are the time to develop not only the muscles but also the mental toolbox to help you deal with the "discomfort". Find out what works for you. It's the ONE THING training.

new2703

Thanks guys. Really seems like I need to toughen up. For the record, I do hit 95 percent usually after the first 5 minutes. That is actually the way I test. Usually takes me 2-4 minutes to settle into test. Maybe my inexperience is coming into play here

William Jenks

I am another one who suggests a more intense warmup. Although I'm not doing it now, I've thought the 3 x 1'(1') at 100% is a great way of getting the legs going. When I am tired, the PE of those 1' intervals goes DOWN...i.e., the first one is the hardest. Ride a few min easy after the last one to get mentally ready and then go. Whole warmup can be 3 min easy, 5 min of the alternating high/low, 3 min easy if you want.

Al Truscott

Posted By John Kitchen on 22 Jan 2013 06:09 PM

Thanks guys. Really seems like I need to toughen up. For the record, I do hit 95 percent usually after the first 5 minutes. That is actually the way I test. Usually takes me 2-4 minutes to settle into test. Maybe my inexperience is coming into play here

Actually, studies have shown that the best cycling time trials efforts are achieved by spending the first 2-4 minutes of a 20K TT @ about 10-15% below your anticipated RPE, and blasting the last 3-5 minutes. So, you're not a wimp, you're smart! But you still need to get past some mental barriers about letting yourself work to your capability. Jen Voigt said it best: "Shut up, legs!"

new2703

After all the great suggestions, I wanted to test out a more intense WU.
5@z1 4x1/1@z4, 2 minutes@z1. Really seemed to help was able to do 15 minute@100 FTP. Could have gone longer but didn't want to interfere with next days WO

MattAaronson

Posted By John Kitchen on 23 Jan 2013 02:58 AM

After all the great suggestions, I wanted to test out a more intense WU.

5@z1 4x1/1@z4, 2 minutes@z1. Really seemed to help was able to do 15 minute@100 FTP. Could have gone longer but didn't want to interfere with next days WO

 

I do the warmup that William mentions -- is the old "EN standard" -- and I do it as follows:

- 10' easy, structured as 5' really easy and 5' at z1

- 3x3'(1')@z3

In total that is 22' so if I have less time I truncate the really easy part. What strikes me about what you're doing...even with the modifications above..is that it is a lot of short 1/1 type of stuff, vs. 3' efforts that will really settle you in and get you working a bit more.

Carl

I wish my heart rate would stay that low at 100%. Dang you are a cardiovascular VO physiological anomaly!!!! !!
Agree with others :
I try and do different things such as if its a 15 min interval I do 5 min at a 70 cadence, 5 min at 80 cadence and 5 min at 90-100.
I often do the same with the VO Max wko's.
like Tyler Hamilton said-you can go through that wall of burning quads but you must do it mentally first then the legs will follow!!!!

new2703

FTP workout yesterday went really well. Shortened the warmup and added some Z3 into the mix. Was able to hit all my intervals. I think the other thing that helped was basically being told to man up and get it done. Thanks everyone for the awesome advice

Peter Greagg

John — it's one example where HTFU is the "correct" answer