Measuring Bike Vo2 sessions.
Hello,
I'll apologize in advance for not knowing some of the answers to what I'll be asking here. I've tried to do some digging in the forums, and have read through the Power Seminar, I'm learning this new language, but apparently not as fast as I'd like to.
When I do Vo2 workouts on the bike, say I'm doing 2 sets of 6 x 1/1. Isn't the focus or the purpose of the Vo2 workout to push ourselves to the limit while in the "on" minute? I understand I don't want to just stop pedaling in the "off" minute, but wouldn't I be acquiring purer data if I started & stopped my power meter each time I'm on? I was a little discouraged this moring after doing my 2 sets of 6 x 1/1 when I looked at my avgerage power for each session. But then I was curious so I opened up the graphs in the WKO+ software and began just averaging the "on" minutes and comparing those to previous weeks, and bam I found what I was looking for, I am getting stronger 
. Apparently I'm pretty volatile when it comes to how I hand the "off" minute or the recover mintue, which of course is going to drag that average power down for the whoel 12 minutes of fun. How does everyone else do this? Are you all starting and stopping your power meters w/ each interval or even "on" and "off" minutes? I'll admit I have an objective target issue, when I get on the bike, I like to know my target is to hit say 300 watts when on. Yea, I know I can do that w/ the "off" minute averaged in there, but is kind of dilutes the target ya know.
Or when it comes to watts in a session like this, I should just be more focused on the TSS points in the end to finalize how productive the work out really was?
Thanks for any input,
Jonas McCluskey
Comments
If you overachieve the ON portion, then your IF will be >1.00 (and you probably ought to read the article titled so in the wiki). Conversely, riding the OFF portion at less than 65% of FTP, your IF will be <1.00. Not necessarily a bad thing. But that indicates that your effort, over the entire interval, is less than prescribed. <br />
If you feel that you can hit a higher VO2 number than 120% of FTP, or what you tested to in the 5/10/20 test, then the standard answer here is to earn the right to work harder by retesting.
You are correct in realizing that the ON segments are what matters. Don't worry about average power over the segments. You are trying to raise the top end and that's the goal. I don't even look at average power in toto. While I'm doing the segment, I just focus on keeping the instantaneous power at or above the goal; I look at each ON segment's average power after I'm finished. If you do the ON segments at the level you're supposed to be doing, the OFF segments tend to end up where you are supposed to be (50-60%); it actually is worse for me to stop pedaling or go too easy during the OFF segments. So, goal of the VO2 interval is 120% of FTP, and not necessarily "the limit." Right now I'm using TR, but before TR, I just looked at the graphs on WKO+ to figure out what average power was during the ON segments; I don't even look at the OFF segment average power.
I think that if you get too concerned about average numbers across the workout, youwill end up doing the easy segments too hard and then won't be able to make the hard segment goal for the entire workout.
As to hitting the buttons... I try to hit the lap buttons at the beginning and end of each interval so I can see the averages afterward, but I inevitably miss one or two. :-) But I use LAP, not START/STOP... and you should too. You want to have the recovery bits recorded as well.
For me, I try to spin up 1-3 seconds before the interval begins and peddle thru the end. Recovery ends up being as easy as needed, sometimes it feels impossible to spin the cranks at all in the first 5-10 seconds. But as my legs recover and HR drops, my cadence and power come back up. In early intervals, many recoveries end up between 55% 60%, later ones only make it back to 40-45% before the next interval ques up.
Not sure that I agee with that assessment ...but I guess as with most 'It depend" on the goal of the VO2 Workouts...like in running (reading Daniels) are these meant to be Intervals or Repetitions - which muscular or cardiovascualr adaptions are we attempting to influence....Both the ON interval intensity & the rest interval intensity/time will influence this.
I have alwasy felt that it was imporant to Hit/avg the goal 120% intesity (even though I can easily exceed it) and to recover at 65% intensity...and that approach fully taxes both muscule recuritment and cardiovascular adaptions (lactate clearing & anaerobic threshold)...
...while BLASTING/Exceeding the 120% power target and then allowing for FULL recovery or recovering at lower intenstity manly is a Muscle Recruitment excercise.....
Neither approach is wrong...but they are different...a' la running intrevals & reps...
There's no question that what you do during the recovery intervals will affect your ability to perform during the work intervals. For those of you who are recovering @ less thsn 65% of your FTP, have you ever tried this VO2 work recovering at that level? I'm just parroting the coaches' words here, but I think I'm *supposed* to be less than fully recovered for each successive work interval. Doing those last ferw intervals of each set in a semi-recovered state is part of what generates the improvement intended from these "VO2 intervals" on the bike. I want to feel as if each successive work interval is getting harder. By the time I reach the last couple, I'm feeling like there's some question as to whether I will actually succeed. I'm certainly not feeling like the last interval is the same as the first. If I fully recovered between intervals, than I think I'd get less out of the session.
Bottom line, I think you should be recovering at whatever IF will put you in that " just about can't make it" state by the last 2-3 intervals. If you're not going to a dark place at the end of a VO2 workout, you haven't worked hard enough. The first place to look where to up the ante is during the recovery, before trying to work > 120% during the work phase.
For me, a 1/1 time ratio, intervals of 30-75 secs, and 120%/60-65% effort ratio over 15-40 minutes puts me into that dark place at the end. YMMV.
I have been focussing on V02 work in my OS/IM hack (not enough time for full OS pre IMTX) . I customize my V02 workouts from TR existing workouts(I built em all up before the OS launched on TR) but I have kept the recovery part as in the TR template which is 40%.
Here is yesterday's example. Work @ 121% , Rest @ 40%, Even had about 7 min rest inbetween sets.....End result is 21 minutes of very hard work(not counting the warmup).... HR hits LTHR each interval and recovers....I like 40% ....
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/173799
The way I see it there are several ways to make these harder , 1. higher percentage of FTP , 2. longer V02 intervals (which is what I am working on) 3, less rest between intervals , and 4. MORE intensity during recovery. I really dont think it matters as long as your getting the work done.
Next time I will focus a bit more on the rest period intensity level, I am going to do 120% folllowed by 65% and keep to the rest period duration....
I think there is some magic in these VO2 sessions...I can betcha most of the IM field is NOT doing this...Like most things IM related, its about proper execution...
IMO that is the reason that the coaches specify 65% of FTP as the recovery intensity (as AL T suggests in his para 1 above).
Also I recall reading Billet (can't find the article now, of course
So based on this thinking, I think Tim could get more VO2 max stimulous out of his wko by pushing up his recovery intensity to the recommended 65% — even if this resulted in him being able to do less total work at his VO2 max intensity.
I have been doing these as sets of 5 x 1'/1'. It's usually numbers 8-10 that are the worst for me. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel on numbers 13-15.
WOW great stuff EN'er's! Thank you. I was hoping for a clear cut answer, but all of your extremely well thought out and intelligent responses is much better than a clear cut answer.
I'd say a lot of it depends on which strategy (more rest or less rest inbetween "on" minutes) both physiologically and psychologically gets us through the dark/hurt phase of the V02 session with the best effort in the end.
Again, thank you!
Jonas McCluskey
That said, this year is the first year I have made a concious effort to achieve z1 during the recoveries and I would say it certainly makes a difference in the overall difficulty of the workout.
I just did a very unscientific and informal experiment on recovery power during VO2 workouts. I had been doing all my OS workouts at 45-50% simply because it was convenient in terms of gearing and cadence, and I felt it allowed me to keep spinning enough to keep the legs from flooding.
The past two workouts, I've done at the prescribed 65% during the off segments, and found little/no difference in RPE or overall exertion in the workout. First few intervals were relatively easy, latter ones were definitely harder. However, I'm still not done experimenting, because it is certainly possible that my VO2 power numbers are different than 120% FTP (which is what I've been using).
In the end, I think it all comes down to this: it is nothing more than an estimate.
The new power test has that qualifier right in it - it is 'good enough'. The only way you are going to get exact, accurate numbers for FTP and VO2 is to get to a lab and measure respiration gases. Short of that, we do the best we can with what is easily available to us. Which means things like a 5minute test, or using 120% of FTP, for VO2. At the end of the day, whether you recover @ 50% FTP or 65% is small potatoes compared to things like the amount of ON time you are putting in during the workout.
It may be blasphemy - but one of the potential downsides to all the scientific approach in EN is that we can get so wrapped up in the details that I think it is very, very easy to miss the forest through the trees.
EDIT: to answer the OP, count me among those that doesn't bother with lapping or making intervals for each ON portion of the workout. During VO2 workouts, stuff like average power and nomimal power barely have secondary meaning within the context of the workout.