Firecrest 303 vs 404
I'm curious to get an opinion from the team:
If you were getting a new road bike and $ was not the big issue what wheel set would you select? Is the Firecrest 303 that good? Would you choose it over a 404 (or 404 Firecrest) as being more "multi-purpose"? Thanks.
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It depends on what tires you plan to run. The 303 is typically faster with 25mm tires than a 404 is with a 25mm. The 404 however is typically faster with a 21mm tire than the 303 is with a 21mm tire. I've heard with a 23, tire they are actually pretty close with the 404 still having the slight edge. Of course the devil is in the details and they have slightly different curves across the yaw angles. For TTs and Tris the 404 is still the go to wheel, but for a road bike, like you mentioned, the 303 starts to become a really good option if you are considering running 25mm tires.
Thanks for all the comments.
Quite hilly where I ride and although I am frequently alone I do enjoy the occasional "spirited" ride with buddies. The bike would definitely not be a commuter.
Not too caught up in the weight game. I ride with 404s(not firecrest) on my tri bike and thought that the 303 firecrest would be a nice change(?contrast). Also thought that there might be a stability benefit in cross winds (compared to regular 404) and perhaps a comfort benefit when combined with a stiff(er) frame than I'm currently using.
Do any of you think I'd have regrets if I went with the 303? Is there downside (accepting that there is no clearance issue with the wheel and frame)? I guess the consensus is that the firecrest design is what it is cracked up to be.
It really is great to get your opinions - a huge plus for being "on the team".
Thanks for all the comments.
Quite hilly where I ride and although I am frequently alone I do enjoy the occasional "spirited" ride with buddies. The bike would definitely not be a commuter.
Not too caught up in the weight game. I ride with 404s(not firecrest) on my tri bike and thought that the 303 firecrest would be a nice change(?contrast). Also thought that there might be a stability benefit in cross winds (compared to regular 404) and perhaps a comfort benefit when combined with a stiff(er) frame than I'm currently using.
Do any of you think I'd have regrets if I went with the 303? Is there downside (accepting that there is no clearance issue with the wheel and frame)? I guess the consensus is that the firecrest design is what it is cracked up to be.
It really is great to get your opinions - a huge plus for being "on the team".
Both the 404 FC and the 303 FC will handle cross winds better/definitely than the current 404s you have.... so either will be an improvement. The difference is a gust of wind is much less likely to turn the front wheel on you which means you don't have to fight the wind.
My opinion is comfort comes from wider rims, better tires, lower tire pressure and/or wider tires (maybe latex tubes but that is debatable). For both the 303FC and 404FC I believe zipp recommends about 5 psi lower pressure due to the wide rim. The biggest comfort difference you would notice is by running a 25mm tire. Of course the 25 is less aero. That is where the 303 starts to become a good option as the profile is different and it has less of a aero penalty when running a 25 tire.
I ride 404FC most of the time and race on 808FC. I can't think of one time in the last year that i regreated the 404FC and I have never been blown around on them.
At the end of the day, I highly doubt you will regret with the 303FC or 404FC other than the fact that they are an expensive wheelset for daily use. You probably wont even notice the difference in them if you rode them back to back.
Matt- thanks for your insight.
Matt, do you train on FC404s? I got a pair last year and I've only been using them for races. I detest having to switch out the brake pads before and after races. Should I just ride the FC404s year round?
I think the real question is how big is the difference between a FC 303 and FC 404. They both seem deep enough to be considered "apples". I mean it feels to me like we are talking about a "red delicious" versus a "gala". I think the real "apple" to "orange" conversation is comparing a FC 404 to a FC 202. I just got a set of FC 202 for my Madone and love them. Nice lateral stiffness, they climb well and feel snappy when you jump out of the seat. They are great.
The FC 303 seems like a bit of compromise wheel, which is great for a good all-arounder. Again, it based on what you are into.....
I may have hijacked this thread. Sorry. Sometimes I am lame.....
My mindset is this: I'd rather ride around on "training wheels" and treat myself out the nice fancy FC404s for the "prom".
But the swapping of break pads and changing of brake width with the center-pull brakes on my transition make the going back and forth tiresome. I did this in 2012 and I don't plan on doing it again in 2013.
So I'm probably going to run them "full time" once outdoor season goes into full swing. Even though I got the FC404s are SRAMbassador pricing, I'm in no rush to get them replaced if something goes wrong on a training ride.
So my MILLION DOLLAR IDEA is come out with an inexpensive set of training wheels that have a firecrest rim width and have a safe braking surface for the Tangente Platinum Pro Brake Pads. Swap the training wheels back and forth with your race wheels w/o a hassle. Ok, getting my kickstarter video ready ...
David,
I was just reading the bike fit ebook in the wiki under' Learning' check the link below. Todd Kenyon recommend a wheel that is 50mm or deeper
"A wheel is not really aero until its rim is at least 50mm deep. Why? If you don’t have a roughly 3:1 aspect ratio, the air will not smoothly reattach at the trailing edge. So, just because it looks slick, it may not be."
The 303 is 45mm close but not quite 50mm depth. The 404 is 58mm so if you are looking for aero benefits go with the 404. This might not equate to very many seconds and perhaps other considerations should weigh in more heavily. I could not find information on wind tunnel testing quickly on the 303 but the link below compares a box rim zipp 404's,808's and a disk.
http://members.endurancenation.us/R...f+Coaching
http://zipp.com/_media/pdfs/technol..._speed.pdf
Gordon
@Cary, the braking surface is a bit over hyped in my opinion. The same rubber pads (not cork) will work on both carbon and aluminum. The only real issue is that if an shaving of aluminum were to get stuck in the pad, it could then damage the carbon rim. I'm not recommending this, but I know plenty of people (myself included) that have used the same swiss stop yellow or zipp pads on both aluminum and carbon rims.
Anyway....the options that come to my mind are:
1. Wide training wheels (like you are going to invent with a safe brake surface). The bang for your buck option is a set of wheels built with Velocity A23 rims. They are 23mm wide and like $75 a rim. Just a very simple and solid wide rim. If you want nicer wide wheels, the zipp 101 or hed belgium are quite nice (but pricey for training wheels). Up to you if you use the same pads or not.
2. Get the Bontrager RXXXL Aero Brake Levers that have adjusters in them. This way you don't have to adjust the actual brakes and you just turn a knob on the brake lever. http://store.trekbikes.com/product/bontrager+rxxxl+aero.do
3. Wear down or shave the pads carbon pads and use new pads of the narrow wheels. The 1mm per pad difference would give you the clearance you need for the wide rims and when you put the new pads in with the narrow wheels you would not need to adjust the brakes.
4. Add in-line brake cable barrel adjusters. I personally hate doing that to a tri bike as you usually end up with a cable sticking out into the wind.
And as far as my MILLION DOLLAR IDEA goes - you're all under NDA
Am I being penny wise, pound foolish?
Perhaps get a PT hub put into the 650 FC404 or move the PT wheel somewhere and go with crank based power. I know non of these are especially frugal options, but we are talking about carbon wheels here, the conversations usually starts above the "cost-effective" level and degrades (gets costlier) from there.
Great Stuff. Thanks everyone and to think it's all prompted by a "simple" question about a bicycle wheel.
Al, The front is definitely the better investment as in my opinion the big difference with the FC is the handling which you will only notice on the front. As far as the back goes, i think you are splitting hairs on this one. In a wind tunnel the 404 FC is faster, but in real life on a rear whee I'm not sure you will notice any difference. To me the benefit of getting the 404 FC rear are: much easier to change tires, wider rim so you can run a 23mm tire instead of 21mm without a aero penalty, same braking surface front and rear, and it will look better to have a matching pair :-)
Basically the front is worth it, the back is debatable for most people. As Cary pointed out, you do race with no wheel cover once a year so a faster rear wheel may actually make more of a difference than most.
So I was looking a the SRAM 990 TT brake levers I have on my bike and noticed that they spin. I visited the web website: http://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/990-aero-brake-lever and found out they have up to 8mm of caliper adjustment built in to the levers, kinda like the Bontrager RXXXL. This will simplify my life immensely.