My first marathon - questions about training approaches and philosophies
Team – I need some advice from the running experts.
I have never run a marathon before but this year I am targeting the Chicago Marathon on October 13 as one of my big "A" events. Partly because running a marathon is a "bucket list" thing to do, but mostly because my wife is expecting a baby in late-June so my triathlon season is ending early… weekends with 5 hours of biking won't be feasible.
Although I have no marathon experience, I want to get a really good finish time for what may well be a "one and done" experience. I have no idea what I ought to target, but I suspect it ought to be in the low 3-hour range. I just ran a 1:26:10 half marathon on no special training beyond the OS plan and did so "training through" and completing all of my OS workouts that week. So I suspect if I really focus on running and building my endurance I should be able to do well. I'm one of those guys who always has a higher VDOT at longer distances…but I've never gone past 13.1!!
One issue I've had in the past with running is that when I dial-up the volume I tend to get injured. Hence I've usually limited my 120' runs in the Half iron plans to a single one each year, and pulled the others back to 90' runs. That said, I've never done any real quantity of EP running…it's always been lots of TP intervals per the EN plan then my "remainder time" at HMP. Every run is a suffer-fest and done at whatever pace I can manage to be just barely capable of finishing it.
I have a few questions for the team at this point:
1. What are the different philosophical approaches to marathon training and specific training plans that you might recommend given my profile? I.e. Jack Daniels' plans, Hal Higdon plans, "anything that is big mileage", "nothing that goes beyond 20 miles", etc. I really know very little about this.
2. Are there approaches that incorporate ~2 bike workouts a week into the plan? Honestly I feel like all the biking over the past 3 years really has helped my running, and has done so without all the stress and injury risk. Are there legitimate running plans for low-3-hour marathoners that include a biking component?
3. Tactically, is it reasonable to do tri training until the end of July and still have enough time to prepare for an October 13 marathon? I ask this because I may be able to do 70.3 Racine on July 21…which is my only chance to get a PB this season since my other half-iron is Kansas which has a slow course. The alternative is to cut over to marathon training after Kansas on June 9.
All of your thoughts and input are much appreciated.
Cheers,
Matt
Comments
I've found a guy called "Greif" who is pretty well known in european running community. He had a surgery after that he was unable to walk for a year or so and after that he started "running" again. Finally after 3 more years he hit his all-time PR with a 2:24:xx at an age of 41 weighting 86kg at a heigth of 195cm
Here you can find a very challenging training plan for a Marathon preparation -> http://www.greif.de/downloads/countdown2008.pdf (sorry it's only available in German).
I've also seen a nice docu about marathon pacing - they were telling that the most successful strategy is to start a little slower as you've planned for the first in the first quarter.
Then speed up a little below your planned pace and keep there for as long as you can. You will slow down by yourself on the last quater.
@ Brenda, I will for sure. I'm interested to know what he thinks about the various philosophies for sure, and what sort of plans he advocates.
@ David and Emily, it is really interesting, that book you recommend (which I just bought 2 minutes ago), seems to be as different from Hansons as possible. Now I know exactly what approach the Hansons folks are beating up on in the first part of their book. This is what I'm so eager to hear what my EN teammates think...there appear to be many different "camps" and approaches...I'm sure none of these folks are pedaling bunk, but I suspect some approaches are better than others for particualr individuals and profiles, and I don't have a clue what is most appropriate for me personally.
I followed the R.L.R.F. for a couple years before I finally gave up on it. Injuries were pretty routine and I plateau'ed. I believe I went 3:52 on RLRF, and barely made it in one piece through training. It was ugly. Two years later I went the volume route on a 10 week plan and went 3:21 on the same course. My wife went 4:52 and got injuried multiple times using R.L.R.F. The next year she went the volume route, went 4:25 with no injuries. Needless to say, not a fan of Run Less for long distance racing.
I like Pfiznger as his book is well written and easy to follow. Plus he has various cookie cutter plans that are easy to follow. Daniels goes more into the science of it. Plus if you like putting together your own plans, he shows you how.
Both advocate large amounts of easy paced running, and various degrees of MP miles. Typically two to three quality runs a week (depends on stage of training) with the other days being recovery miles. One small difference is Pfiznger likes the longer mid-week run to help build endurance. I don't have the books in front of me, but I believe both have room for cross-training until you get into the meat of it. At least locally, the low 3 hour guys seem to have a lot of success with the 12 or 18 week 70 Pfiznger plan. I'll be going with the 70 this go-around. I've yet to follow a Pfiznger plan all the way through, so I can't speak too much to it.
Personally I think your timeline is a little tight. I did Augusta 70.3, took a downweek, and start training for a marthon the next week. I was pretty fried going into marathon taper. I'd rather tri-train than marathon train any day. But you seem further along than I was, so it's possible. I think 12 weeks is plenty, provided you have the base going in.
Good luck!
What you need is probably a period of EP running where you build your miles to 45-50 mpw and then add intensity to it while keeping miles steady. Start adding some strides to the end of those runs when you get ready to transition into training. For maybe 3 -4 weeks you can do one interval session(longer intervals are better) and a tempo run keeping the rest easy runs. Eventually switch to one tempo every other week and some MP miles in your long run every other week. Take a look at Daniel's A plan, think that might work well for you. It can be a bit complicated, but forms an excellent template. He specifies two key workouts and the rest is up to you. Pfitzinger also had some good plans including a 12/55 (12 weeks peaking at 55 mpw). Look at a few different books and plans and see how they structure the weeks and what will work best for you.
As for the HIM, if its a goal race then training for Chicago maybe a bit tight if your goal is to do well there. If you can find a way to get some higher run volume during tri training and not require a recovery then your chances are better.
Let us know how this turns out. I'm interested in doing my first marathon some time in the future, and I'm really curious to see how well this all turns out!
After talking with the local running guys who were generally 2:50s-3:10 guys, the common theme was build to where your body can stand 60 mile weeks, then worry about quality. Until then, log the base work.
I do feel like that base pop has also made more injury resistant. Across the board my times came down too.
Of course, this is all individualized. Good luck!
My best marathon was admittedly just before I hooked on here officially, but I used the Pfitzinger book, and it was the first time I trained for a marathon using a plan with well thought out distance AND pace proscriptions. (Some of us are slow.) Pfitzinger DOES emphasize quality and different pace training in different phases, but it also has a greater emphasis on volume than you'll see around here. I ran several 60 mile weeks and a couple 70 mile weeks. Most of the time I was doing a couple of bikes per week to sub for some of the easy runs.
So, ONE APPROACH which I think is worth considering is to look at a Pfitzinger plan or one similar to it that is targeted at 60-70 mi per week. You'll be able to see which are the key runs (long, quality, tempo). You can sub moderate biking in for the others. (Notice that some of that running is slow! You never run slow!) :-)
I know it sounds stupid, but it's a fact.... you have to get to the point where you can run your marathon pace without blinking for a long, long, long time. You're already very good at running this pace (do you ever run slower than it? I don't think so!), but you need to be able to do it "forever".
My point is that...I'm just guessing here... but you may be the guy who could do well with some pretty long runs where you run MP for the BACK HALF with some easier running in the first half.
My initial take is that regardless of my approach, I'm going to have to build some base volume. For this first time this year, then, I'm going to try to do all of the HIM plan runs "as scheduled"…i.e. up to the full 120 minutes when called-for. I guess if I run these slower than in the past I have a fighting chance of not being overtired and getting injured. We'll see. No more doing the HIM parts of those runs at z4 I guess, and no more doing the MP parts at z3. I'll also have to be really good about doing the Friday run. Sometimes I tend to bag that workout (a) because my Thursday run is in the evening so not a lot of recovery time, (b) concern about running the day after a long run and (c) a swim+run seriously cuts into Family time on a Friday evening. I'll have to try to get the Friday swim in during the morning so I'm able to do that run. I suspect if I do the running as per the plan and run it at a slower pace I should be able to get my mileage up to a consistent ~40 during the half iron training. Hopefully that will then allow me to do a 12 week marathon program.
As for the books, I haven't gotten totally into the details but it looks like my choice will be between a Pfitzinger and Hansons approach. Clearly with Hansons you can't do anything other than run. Pfitzinger has space for some biking for sure. I'm looking forward to really comparing the approaches in the coming days.
I spent about 5 months doing a few workouts with some local fast runners a few years ago. These are the kind of guys that actually run the marathon time that there vdot predicts because they put in the work. Most of the things I noticed are obvious but I think it is worth noting.
- They ran significantly more volume and typically 6-7 days a week with 1 or 2 days of double runs (but lots of easy running) - of course they don't swim or bike
- They didn't do that much more quality work than EN plans... maybe 25-50% more AT MOST but their volume was easily 2 - 3 times as much
- Their easy pace was really easy.... i mean easier than Daniels easy and working up to his easy pace
- Most of them were very good up sticking to their zones and not spending time in the grey areas between zones.
What I am getting to is IF you are going to try the volume approach that runners do (which will get you a faster marathon as long as you don't get hurt), you REALLY need to get the ideas of EN marathon pace zone or always be pushing type stuff out of your head.
FWIW, I have not run a marathon to my potential (according to my 1/2 marathon vdot) but I wasn't willing to really be a runner for that time. I still rode 3 times a week and swam three times a week. I did 2 workouts a week with the guys that ran 15 minutes faster than me in the race, even though we ran the exact same paces in training.
All that said, there is nothing wrong with sticking to a few quality runs a week and keeping your bike and swim... you are a triathlete after all. I just figured I would share a few thoughts.
Also, Jack Daniels has some really good marathon programs in his book that I know many people have followed to great times (or to injury when they tried to be a triathlete and follow a Daniels plan).