Nearing the End - Feedback
As we near the end of the JOS, it's great to give the coaches some feedback on the plans. Feel free to leave it now or wait until after you finish and do those last tests.
- Vets: there have been several changes this year. What did you think of them? (The biggest is obviously the shorter time frame.)
- First years (No one is a newbie any more!): How did you react to the training? What about the length? When did you make the most gains? If that was the first 6-8 weeks, how did you feel during that last half of the OS?
Please answer whatever questions or provide any feedback that you see fit - my prompts are just to get you started. Remember that we are all in this together and the most constructive feedback we can give is that which makes things better for us all in the future.
(I'll provide some feedback later, but I want to let the thread get started without my responses coloring it!)
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Comments
3rd OS for me and I thought it was the best!! The last 2 years being 20 weeks was just too long. Looking back through my notes it appears by week 14 and 15 I was ready to exit!! I have to say this year though the last 6 weeks were some serious work and I am ready to exit now.
Started the OS with an FTP of 236 but think I was tired but went with it and looking to be out with a 275 will put me close to 300 outside!!
Starting vDOT 50 current 52.
I think the 110% should be incorporated into the OS next year also as part of the VO work cause there is a real benefit with them!!
Ready to start prepping for Racine 70.3<img src='http://members.endurancenation.ushttp://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default//emoticons/smile.gif' align="absmiddle" border="0" />
Speaking of that there was a year layout for those of us doing Ironman Wisc meaning OS then move to this Etc. Can you tell me where that has moved too??
Thanks<img src='http://members.endurancenation.ushttp://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default//emoticons/smile.gif' align="absmiddle" border="0" />
- I'm ambivalent on the 14 vs. 20 week OS
- I think the FTP workouts in the advanced plan were more challenging this year and built better fitness, e.g. 3x15 and 20/20/10
- I think there were more 2x2mile and 2x1.5 mile z4 runs (not sure but felt like it)...those are great for building fitness as well
- Maintaining 2 rest days and no swimming is great. High ROI.
- Maintaining 4 runs per week and 3 bikes is key. The running frequency really is key.
- The VO2 intervals were not useful and I felt liek they were wasted rides. I skipped the 30/30 and 45/45 and went straight to 1/1 and still felt that way. That last time I felt the VO2 was actually useful was in 2011 when it was 2.5'/2.5'. Those were brutal but I think much more effective.
- The 110% stuff that I added to replace the Thursday VO2 was good. The 5MH has great workouts but I wouldn't insert it as a standalone block. I think it complements the other FTP rides really well when it sits alone on Thursday.
If I think of some other things I'll add...
William,
I have been giving this quite a bit of thought lately, and here's what I have come up with so far:
If and when I come up with more, I will post again.
In case I haven't said it, thanks for taking on the role of OS Captain. I think that was one HUGE improvement from last year. Having a run Captain and bike Captain benefited the Team also in that the forum posts followed a template and timing. That made the forums much more conducive to constructive mojo-in-ation.
There were more changes (at least obvious ones) in the bike than in the run, except for the fact that the whole thing was shorter, making the length of this whole very intense running bit shorter. I was satisfied before (though I tended to burn out a bit in the last few weeks), and I was satisfied this time. It being shorter was probably good for me in the "don't burn out" sense.
In each of the last two years, I made it just fine through the first two blocks (which totaled 14 weeks) and then had to take a break of a few days' worth intensity somewhere around there and kind of hung on to the end. My weeks 19 and 20 were never great. In all three cases, my OS is ending at the same time. So, for me, having the "informal" training at the front end (i.e., the six weeks before I started OS) was better than having an OS in which I struggled more at the end. I'm not ancient, but I am 49. Perhaps the 20-45 set feels a bit differently about the length...but this feels better for me. An alternative would be to have the OS longer again but with a scheduled break in it.
The second thing that I noticed was that the late-OS "killer bikes" were 50-60 minutes of FTP, rather than 30-40 minutes of FTP plus VO2 (as they used to be). Again, this may be a personal matter, but this *feels* better for me. But the bottom line for me is that I thought the longer FTP sessions were more relevant to stretching my FTP out on to what we'll e doing on the road as the weather warms up.
A couple other people have addressed the standard VO2 workouts (30/30, 1/1, at 120% vs the longer intervals at 110%). 30/30 are pretty tough for me to do meaningfully indoors, so I went straight to 1/1 early in the OS. Like Matt A, I switched to the 5' 110% intervals at the 8 week mark. Again, this feels more relevant to me, but I acknowledge that I am FTP-limited, not VO2 limited.
Regarding the experiment with the 12 minute 85% segment at the beginning of the bike warmups:
- I did not experience elevated HR unless the fatigue was really pretty serious
- I DID find a qualitative RPE warning from it...so that was useful. Sometimes different RPE at same wattage. sometimes I did that same RPE and let the wattage float a bit.
- It did raise my overall work for a given "hour", but sometimes by making that hour more like 75 minutes. :-) But, bottom line is that it did raise the work on a default workout
- It does raise the time over the 3 x 1 minute warmup...just a factoid...but most workouts are by definiition over an hour now.
- Bottom line was that it worked well for me, but I didn't feel so strongly about it one way or another.
Because I am going to race at the end of "week 15" (and therefore schedule a low intensity week in front of that), I am going to take a bit less rest in the days leading up to the last bike test and now, I may sacrifice a few W results on that test. Statistically, I am not going to be a "big improver". However, I had already done a bit of work coming in...and I proved to myself last weekend that I am not going to lose nearly the watts from just going outside like I usually do...so the quality of the carry over this year is top notch, and I am feeling like my run fitness is excellent (not burned out like it was last year).
So...whether just me, or whether due to the changes... at least from this perspective of still having about a week to go, I've been very pleased with this year's OS.
Actually the prior "standard warmup" for the OS was 3x3'(1')@z3. It is the in-season standard warmup that featured 3x1'(1')@z4. I never understood why these were different. I continued the 3x3'(1')@z3 and never did the 12'. I feel I can get sufficient HR and RPE feedback doing the prior protocol consistently. I use the 3x1'(1')@z4 for outdoor workouts (with a longer 15' easy spin).
The "most workouts are by definition over an hour" is a flaw on weekdays IMO, but to your point the benefits of >40' of z4 time this year has been significant. My approach has been to truncate the warmup...so for example on a day where the workout is 3x15'(4') I will do a warmup of 5' easy (as 2.5' easy and 2.5' @z1) then 2x3'(1') @z3 then the MS. The total warmup is 13', then the MS is 53' (assuming no recovery or cooldown after the last 15' z4 interval). So I can do the whole thing in 66', only 6' longer than standard. For weekday workouts I need to do things like this. The ROI principal is really critical for me given work and family committments. To me the ROI approach to the OS (and, to a lesser extend, the in-season) it is a hallmark of EN and a key differentiator.
For the record, I often cut the warmup to about 18 minutes by doing 3/12/3 easy/85%/easy. But in a pinch with 3 x 1, I could do it in about 12. :-)
First years (No one is a newbie any more!): How did you react to the training? What about the length? When did you make the most gains? If that was the first 6-8 weeks, how did you feel during that last half of the OS?
This was my first OS with EN, and it was my 2nd year training in January - April. Compared to non-EN training, HOLY CRAP. I am feeling so confidnet and totally ready to take on my season now. My overall fitness is off the charts compared to where I left off in November at IM Florida.
I think that 14 weeks is just perfect. The first 6 weeks felt amazing - like I was overachieving everything. Then retest, made some boom and then have been struggling to hold on every rn every sense. The delayed fatigue is no joke. It seems simple - only doing 6-7 hours a week, but in reality those 6-7 hours are way more quality than the 10-13 I was putting in for IM training.
Looking over my last year's workouts I can say that my improvements have been much larger than in the same 14 weeks in 2012. Also, I am loving the EN way all around. I am learning how to trust myself and my abilities again.
Thank you for giving me back the ability to trust.
Been training with EN over a year, but came in post-OS last year, so this is essentially the perspective of an OS Noob... I had taken time off from riding and running September through November to let my foot heal, focus on rehab, and get some good swim training in. I started the Pre-Season plan in late November, and VERY cautiously returned to running...
Thoughts:
I think following the Beginner Run Plan in combination with the Intermediate Bike Plan was hugely beneficial for me:
I wonder if separating disciplines could be a potential consideration for RnP for future OS/HIM/IM plans? It would add a level of customization to plans for those who, like me, have an injury that affects them in one discipline but not the other, or those who are stronger in one discipline versus the other(s). I am sure there are logistical issues with separating plans by discipline and level, but the upside is that it could lead to greater gains, less injury, and maybe (just maybe!) even fewer questions in the micro/macro threads (???).
With regard to the future and anything I'd do differently, I'm "FTP limited" as well, and would likely follow the 110% plan for VO2 w/o's next OS if that remains the case. Overall, I'm VERY happy with the OS and the progress I've made!
JOS 2013 was my 3rd OS (2nd with power).
I never did all 20 weeks of previous plans and popped out just after the Vo2 weeks before back into the FTP weeks to finish. That said, 14 weeks felt right. The mixture of FTP and Vo2 was beneficial to my training needs as I was completely off bike since IMC last August. I really wanted to see gains quickly and not waiting until week 12-13 like the old plans to incorproate Vo2 was the ticket in my mind.
I do agree that everyone will find their on-off time number and the plans need simply describe that. I personally feel 2min worked for me so I hacked the Thur Vo2 sessions so that I built it 30sec at a time so I ended up doing last few sessions at 2min on/off.
I also experimented recently with the 110% for a couple of sessions (because I am off running, so the extra bike was added) and I support Patricks' initial comments that it is a good ticket for those who may have plateaud or if you have many weeks before a race me thinks it could be better than GF.
Bottom line, I like the changes, I do feel it is an improvement and kind of sad it is over.
I survived my first OS!
I knew it would be a tough mental training block as my buddy Pat had warned me. I think 14 weeks was good. I don't know if I could have managed 20 personally. I am not new to power or threshold/vo2 work, but I was new to almost all threshold work, and much longer sets at TH on the bike and run.
It was similar enough to riding a computrainer, and no thinking required...just WORK!
My mental toughness, confidence (and durability) on the run have improved quite a bit, mostly at longer distances. I've not run a 5k as fast as in the past, but have set 2 pr's in the half distance and a 4 miler. Since I am needing to improve my run in IM, this is a great development. Especially for a 49 year old!
My watts are within 7 of my highest ever test (I've always tested indoors, just on a computrainer with 15 others in the past) and since I was testing alone, I'm totally good with that. I did have a meltdown of sorts on the bike once, which I've not had in the past, but riding alone in my basement after 2.5 years of riding with 15 others was a tough transition for this social butterfly. Trainer Road saved me. No way I could have continuted to ride alone with out that platform.
I'm confident that once Michigan decides to actually DO spring, and I'm riding outside, I won't be disappointed in my early season fitness.
7 weeks till my first race...an OLY. Hope I can swim that far come June 2!
*forgot to do the nuts and bolts numbers*
OS first run test: vdot: 38.94 indoor 5k 1% at 24:36,
OS final run test: vdot: 39.99 outdoor half mary at 1:51:32
OS first FTP: 196w 3.06 w/kg
OS final FTP: 215w 3.35 w/kg
Color me happy with the results!
It is so appreciated that you were our fearless leaders for this OS.
I can't imagine not having your updates and sage advice along the way!
This OS I did a greater % of the workouts than in any prior year and maintained my swim 2x per wk. I only missed 2 bike workouts and the last two weeks of the run workouts due to bad hip - but run was progressing nicely - to back to where I usually am.
First 8 weeks seemed just like prior OS's - quick increases in FTP and V02 and run paces - basically getting you back to 75-90% of your prior year self. To be expected. Could certainly mention that people have the option to re-test in wk #4 or #5 (not newbies) if they are exceeding their numbers by a significant amount.
Last 6 weeks seemed like I could never get my body to "catch-up" to my week 8 testing numbers. With the immediate long FTP intervals starting in wk9 you didn't see too many people over-reaching - most likely cause they couldn't. With the 20 wk program, my body seemed to have a 1-3 week adjustment period with the new #s - by doing shorter intervals and building back up to 2 x 15s, 18s, 20s. Same with the run. Giving my muscles time to acclimate to the new power requirements put on the legs and lungs. In hindsight it seemed like we were cramming for a test and got a late start. Granted we could have broken up the intervals on our own, but I think most people try to hit the workouts as written first, then modify if they have to. Again, I'm 47 - not so young anymore - so maybe I just need more recovery time.
I felt like going into wk 14 testing - I was more fatigued than ever and felt like my body hadn't absorbed all the work in time to test well - a test that should more accurately reflect the work. I made wk 14 easier and delayed the bike test by 4 days and got a 9% increase from wk 8 but it required some recovery first. In the past I've come out of the OS pretty strong right on schedule. Maybe I just did more work this year (actually I'm sure I did more work in a shorter amount of time). But the timing of the wk 14 tests maybe something to think about too.
As always the biggest struggle w/all the intensity we do in the OS - is staying healthy. That's the one critique of the EN method you hear the most outside the haus. Maybe doing separate blocks of running and biking intensity for 3-4 weeks (where you just maintain the other sport) is an option worth thinking about. So you don't have back to back days of hard running and biking. I've always improved on the bike during the OS - the run is usually just about getting back to my peak from last year. And any injury - usually affects your running a lot worse than your biking.
As for the V02 work - I'm indifferent. I like doing V02 work (maybe its a "big triathlete" thing) and wouldn't mind doing more. I could go either way on short intervals @ 120% or longer ones at 110%. I usually test out pretty close to 120% of FTP. But my z3 time after either type of v02 work always feels super strong - like I'm really making progress. So I wouldn't mind a mix of both. Variety is usually a good thing. I would think at some point people do reach a ceiling on their V02 - especially the veterans & pointy end peeps who have been at this for a number of years - but don't think I'm there yet.
So I'm okay with the new OS, but would also be okay with the old 20 weeks or maybe even happier with a 16 week program with 8 weeks (retest) then 8 more weeks. Remember, its the 2nd half of the OS where most of us really make true improvements over our prior year self - so I want to spend more time w/my 2nd half numbers! Of course this year it will be different since I'm doing SC - I assume I'll be doing more OS style work than if I was getting ready for IM.
Now as we move into our diff plans and tackle our races for the season be sure to race smart and have fun.
It's been a pleasure