Matt, as with bike power I will now watch you go from a little slower than me to notably faster. :-)
I'm still work on a bit of a swim plan that has a reasonable number of drills, but they are not the "normal" drills ...more strength stuff like Tarzan swimming and one arm swimming. Two workouts a week aren't very long. I'm working on trying to develop a deeper catch/pull to try to pull myself over the water a bit more than I have been. (Tend to lead the pull with my elbow instead of hand = bad. Need more strength) I'm getting a little better over the last month. Now 11 (right) strokes per length when I'm tired, 9 when I'm focusing on it, 10 a lot of the time, and 8 if I cheat with dolphin kicks. :-)
Anyway, wu = 250, 250 as swim/kick 25s, 250 as catchup/swim WU 2 = 10 x 25 builds (19-21 sec) MS 1 = 12 x 50 on 55 s (mostly 43=44) 500 swim with small one-finger paddles 5 x 100 pull 2500 total
I'm not very good at hitting the lap at the finish of an interval on the Garmin. Has anyone figured out how to make it autotrigger at all?
I started this week feeling tired and sore from the weekend. Got to the pool on Monday but was very low in energy. Did about 2000m total, was very slow. Yesterday evening I did the run per HIM adv plan - was able to do everything on target though my lungs and heart both had problems catching up. It felt much harder than it should have felt, but still doing the run per plan is a successful run I'd say.
This morning I got up at 5am for masters swim class, feeling totally trashed. Dragged myself to the pool, we had lots of sets with lots of kicking yet somehow I think I had a great swim, felt powerful and relaxed, really enjoyed it and i felt better after the swim than I did before. Now I'm 'resting' till tomorrow evening when it's time for a new FTP test.
Here we go, cannot resist it, , coach is coming out of me. 12 SPL at your arm span, at that pace indicates you are over gliding. What needs to happen is, that, as soon as you extended your arm forward, you point your fingertips to the bottom and initiate a pull, retaining high elbow position, hip drive......Very typical loss occurs in most swimmers after prolonged breaks or minimal training, high elbow, aggressive catch is gone in exchange for "extra rest in the front of the stroke", that leaves you nowhere as the kick in late onset swimmers is non existent. We need higher SPL, no magical number, as it is highly individual. Look closer to 15-16, just a suggestion.
How to swim intervals with descending rest. Early season, it is steady pace throughout, just taking less recovery, however holding steady aerobic pace. Later part of early or mid, you begin these sets at a slower pace, taking minimal rest than as rest is descending you are turning up the speed. In practical sense, looking at number above, I would do this:
3x100(20) 1:42 1:40 1:39 this can be done on a send off 2:00
3x100(15) 1:40 1:38 1:37 this can be done on a send off 1:55
3x100(10) 1:37 1:36 1:34, note 1:34 occurs last, this can be done on a send off 1:45
Just a few thoughts, as always, follow instructions of coaches here, not how I would do this. This is just my 2c. On the other hand, you will come around very quickly. EN theory on swimming is true, tested it myself and proved it. In 6 weeks you will be where you left off, after that, I hope you clock in some gravy.
Today was the first day since months where the weather was really nice - we had about 12°C and sunshine
Like the weather was my run workout SHINY!! Both 1,5m intervals felt somehow not as hard as I expected them to be even I was running WAY too fast as I figured out right now!
According to my last 5k test my TP is at 3:52/km but today I was running at 3:44 for the first and 3:47 for the second and it felt like I could go for another one or even more ... Do you think I should somehow correct my pace zones or re-test in better conditions?
Just thinking out loud because my 5k was at about 1°C with almost 90% humidity and this we will most likely not get again until November ...
Well after that awesome run I did my swim after work - almost same program as yesterday ... I really felt the workout from yesterday. No powerful strokes - my shoulders felt just "empty". I pushed myself to finish MS1 even though I was WAY slower than yesterday - then added just one 400 and that's it.
Hope these MO-TUE swim combinations will get easier over time. These are killers for me as a bad swimmer.
@Aleksander: I will bet you dollars per donuts that Matt means 24 strokes by the way you count. The Garmin he (and I) use counts only the strokes of one arm....and if it says 12, that meant 12 strokes of whatever arm you're wearing it on. Real swimmers tend to count both arms. :-)
Crappy weather here makes it easier to take this week as "transition" mentally than I could have asked for. :-) It's 45 and rainy today. Same tomorrow. Snow on Thursday. Can you believe? Maybe it won't actually snow.
Anyway, I swam again today. I accidentally hit "stop" instead of "lap" so I erased one of my 400s and my last 25. Oh well. Total = 3150 SCY.
Highlights were
some fast 50s in the 41 second range
3 x descending 400s 1:36, 1:35, 1:34 pace. (Each was negative split, so first 200 moderate, second 200 harder)
Probably I'll run tomorrow. No need for me to go bike hard in the rain. Maybe an easy spin on the trainer. Who knows. It's transition! :-)
LOL, ok , want some donuts!!!! That would be great. In that case, at 24 SPL, pendulum swings the other way. We got a lot of work to do. Matt are you hearing this, Matt!!!!! I have 910XT also but I double always in my head and swimmers talk, you are correct is always doubles even stroke rate talk..........I am not a swimmer though, just hang with bunch of little fast fish.
I'm not testing in week #12 so did the bike workout shown for athletes not testing, a 60' bike with 3x15'(4')@z4. I abbreviated the warmup and managed to get the whole thing done in 66'. As usual "Bizarre Foods" was on the TV, and I was therefore able to hit my numbers. I struggled in the last 15' and my HR really got up there…this was only my second ride after a 2-week vacation being off the bike so I'm still getting back up to speed.
Now I have some stuff going on this evening, but will attempt to slot in the brick run tonight after I get home.
Overall 66', NP 237, IF 0.935. Abbreviated warmup of 5' easy/z1 then 2x3'(1')@z3. Then the main set:
Aleksander, I think we are probably going a little outside the main purpose of this thread, but I bet you'd find that a LOT of us who are pretty average swimmers don't get the length per stroke that we should...even some that put an overglide into their stroke.
I'm working on it, and seem to be making progress from being normally 11 (22) strokes/length to 10 (20) in the last couple weeks. Interestingly, at least for me, this has not been all the usual pretty body position stuff, but going for that strong deep catch and pull you allude to. If I can get to 9 (18), I'll be pretty happy (and I think a bit faster).
William, we can start another thread elsewhere on this and I can share what I am finding in literature and my work. The answers are not as black and white on that. Many factors play. Be happy to share what I know. Keep up the good work, you'll get there. Keep visiting the pool.
Yes, separate thread for the swimming for sure. But as long as I'm here, William is right, it is 12 strokes of my left arm, so 23-24 more likely in total. Last year by the end of the season I was down to 9-10 left arm strokes, so 18-20 total strokes. The only time I have ever done 8 (i.e. 16) is in the first 100 of my workout.
I wonder how to lower that number. Different thread for that discussion.
We are supposed to post workouts here, so I will confess that after my function this evening I did not run but instead went to dinner with my wife. Run wold have been burn 400 cal. Dinner was eat 1000 instead. Crap.
Let's get back to WORK Just finished 10',15',20' Z4 repeats on the trainer and my legs aren't feeling that bad so I'm confident for the first long run tomorrow
Just to share some more metrics of my recent ride: 10' = IF: 0.976 / NP: 312 15' = IF: 0.970 / NP: 310 20' = IF: 0.976 / NP: 312 Total workout: 1:15 / IF: 0.898 / NP:287
My down week is starting to show a little of the symptoms of a taper ... surprising fatigue release and such. Ran an easy 5 mi this morning in the gym (weather sucked) and then hit the swim-bands again, and just took a long time stretching and rolling before rolling into work. Felt a lot better at the end than the beginning.
My flight was delayed so I hit the pool on the way to the airport tonight. I did the identical workout to Monday (the workout called to reverse the order of the 100s and 50s but I wanted to do the 100s first). I really focused on lengthening my stroke and keeping my form together, and my arms felt a lot better and stronger. By the time I got into the 50s I still was able to maintain some speed compared with Monday when I totally fell apart. My average pace per 100 was 4 seconds better on the workout overall, and average strokes per length went from 12 to 10. Clearly I'm still "settling in" after 3 pool workouts since September…
Overall 2500 SCY, avg pace 1:36/100. Avg efficiency 37, 19 strokes/length. Took 1:00 rest between each MS.
Still taking my easy week... Weather not conducive for a ride again, so I went swimming...did the same wko as Matt. I've got to be able to learn to hit that button faster when I hit the wall if I'm going to post these... I see myself finish on the wall clock...then hit my watch and it's two seconds longer! Who cares for a 500, but for a 50, that's a point of pride. :-)
Using the Aaronson convention of posting pace, not time. Pretty good day...probably due to the low workload this last few days.
500 WU 1:39
3 x 100 (20"): 1:30, 1:28, 1:27 3 x 100 (15"): 1:30, 1:29, 1:27 3 x 100 (10): 1:31, 1:31, 1:29 (oh well)
4 x 50 (20") 1:26, 1:25, 1:22, 1:21 4 x 50 (15") 1:24, 1:25, 1:22, 1:30 (bad touch last one...probably really about 1:24) 1:23 (ok, I can't count.) At this point a backstroker and another guy jumped in, causing major navigation issues for fast 50s....so last set numbers are all over. 4 x 50 (10") 1:27, 1:26, 1:25, 1:27
Backstroker realizes it's a bad idea to be in this lane. Two other people get out altogether in midst of next 400...and I'm back in the clear. :-)
400 swim: 1:32 400 pull: 1:32 4 x 50 on 1:00 release: 1:26, 1:27, 1:24, 1:26
For the record average stroke per length = "10"...which is pretty good for me, especially considering the threshold speed of the main set...I tend to shorten stroke at higher effort.
Inherited a bug from my little toddler son, felt a bit sick yesterday and bailed on the FTP test. Gradually felt better throughout the day today and did the run. Since it started raining just as I was heading out the door I went back inside and did the 1h45' run on the trainer. Hard work and lungs were hurting during z2 intervals. All in all, 138 TSS points in the bank so I'm happy.
Now need to decide if I should try to make up that FTP test during the weekend (which would mean I'd not do one of those rides - most likely the 2h ABP). Thinking to just do the weekend rides as prescribed since I'll end up with more TSS (=more fitness on race day) than doing an FTP test. Though on the other hand, it would be good to do an FTP test outside since my last tests have all been done on the trainer and I know my outdoor FTP must be about 20-25 watts higher. Hmmm decisions decisions...
@ Ben, I would work the test into a Saturday ride. Most of the Saturday rides start with an FTP set, just replace that set with 2x20'(2') and go real hard and call it a test. You'll be a bit more fatigued for the rest of the ride but my experience is that you can do an extended recovery then get the z3 and z2 stuff done and go the full 180' and still be okay for the ABP ride the next day.
Crap weather and I got out late for my run so ended up doing laps on some city streats near my house. It's a pretty good course actually, with 0.97 miles for the interval and 0.51 for the recovery. I added an extra interval to fill up the time although it wasn't as fast. I realized about halfway through that this is really the first "hard workout" running in almost a month…between the half marathon recovery and playing it conservative through a hamstring tweak I have taken it quite easy on the running. Time to get back into the swing of things. Luckily the workout was pretty good and I hit some good and familiar interval paces. That said, HR was a fair bit higher than usual.
Overall 8.69 miles in 1:00:02, 6:55 pace. Current training VDOT 52 (z4 – 6:38, z3 – 6:45, z2 – 7:02)
Good work Matt & Professor. My right calf was very tight today so I skipped the long run and swam tonight. In total did 3000m all pull since I wanted to rest my calf. I was usually doing 20-21 strokes per length.
WU:300m EZ.
MS1: 3 x 400m (30") @ 1:53, 1:51, 1:50 pace. Rest 1' between sets. That extra rest is my one concession to my age.
MS2: 4 x 300m (20") @1:52, 1:51, 1:50, 151 pace. Rest 1' between set.
Just to share some metrics from yesterdays long run
Total Time: 1:46:28 Distance: 24.74 km rTSS: 171 (0.93) NGP: 04:12 min/km
Legs are still ok right now but I feel a little scratching in my throat so I'll see if I skip 2days swim workout as I don't want to mess up my long ride on the weekend.
@ Ben, I would work the test into a Saturday ride. Most of the Saturday rides start with an FTP set, just replace that set with 2x20'(2') and go real hard and call it a test. You'll be a bit more fatigued for the rest of the ride but my experience is that you can do an extended recovery then get the z3 and z2 stuff done and go the full 180' and still be okay for the ABP ride the next day.
Thanks Matt - i think that's what I will do this weekend. Weather is calling for a crappy Saturday which will become an indoor training day, thinking about switching Saturday and Sunday training from the plan so doing ABP ride indoor on Saturday, then doing the Sunday ride with FTP test included on Sunday.
Mornin' folks. Had a great run last night. I actually really like the long slow runs. It gives me a chance to relax and just get in a groove. With good music and scenery I enjoy myself. That said, I did 100 minutes (as perscribed) and completed 7.9 miles. Had to postpone swim until tonight though...too tired this morning. But I'll get it done!
Comments
Overall 2500 SCY in 41:32, avg pace 1:40/100. Avg efficiency 40, 12 strokes/length. Took 1:00 rest between each MS.
Paces:
Warmup 500 – 1:40
MS1:
- 3x100(20), desc – 1:39, 1:38, 1:34
- 3x100(15), desc – 1:40, 1:37, 1:36
- 3x100(10), desc – 1:42, 1:40, 1:38
MS2:
- 4x50(20), desc – 1:37, 1:37, 1:34, 1:32
- 4x50(15), desc – 1:42, 1:39, 1:38, 1:35
- 4x50(10), desc – 1:46, 1:42, 1:41, 1:38
MS3:
- 1x400 – 1:45
Cooldown 100 – 1:42
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/295439105
I'm still work on a bit of a swim plan that has a reasonable number of drills, but they are not the "normal" drills ...more strength stuff like Tarzan swimming and one arm swimming. Two workouts a week aren't very long. I'm working on trying to develop a deeper catch/pull to try to pull myself over the water a bit more than I have been. (Tend to lead the pull with my elbow instead of hand = bad. Need more strength) I'm getting a little better over the last month. Now 11 (right) strokes per length when I'm tired, 9 when I'm focusing on it, 10 a lot of the time, and 8 if I cheat with dolphin kicks. :-)
Anyway, wu = 250, 250 as swim/kick 25s, 250 as catchup/swim
WU 2 = 10 x 25 builds (19-21 sec)
MS 1 = 12 x 50 on 55 s (mostly 43=44)
500 swim with small one-finger paddles
5 x 100 pull
2500 total
I'm not very good at hitting the lap at the finish of an interval on the Garmin. Has anyone figured out how to make it autotrigger at all?
x 2 of Carol's comment! I'll trade you anytime.
I started this week feeling tired and sore from the weekend. Got to the pool on Monday but was very low in energy. Did about 2000m total, was very slow. Yesterday evening I did the run per HIM adv plan - was able to do everything on target though my lungs and heart both had problems catching up. It felt much harder than it should have felt, but still doing the run per plan is a successful run I'd say.
This morning I got up at 5am for masters swim class, feeling totally trashed. Dragged myself to the pool, we had lots of sets with lots of kicking yet somehow I think I had a great swim, felt powerful and relaxed, really enjoyed it and i felt better after the swim than I did before. Now I'm 'resting' till tomorrow evening when it's time for a new FTP test.
Here we go, cannot resist it,
, coach is coming out of me. 12 SPL at your arm span, at that pace indicates you are over gliding. What needs to happen is, that, as soon as you extended your arm forward, you point your fingertips to the bottom and initiate a pull, retaining high elbow position, hip drive......Very typical loss occurs in most swimmers after prolonged breaks or minimal training, high elbow, aggressive catch is gone in exchange for "extra rest in the front of the stroke", that leaves you nowhere as the kick in late onset swimmers is non existent. We need higher SPL, no magical number, as it is highly individual. Look closer to 15-16, just a suggestion.
How to swim intervals with descending rest. Early season, it is steady pace throughout, just taking less recovery, however holding steady aerobic pace. Later part of early or mid, you begin these sets at a slower pace, taking minimal rest than as rest is descending you are turning up the speed. In practical sense, looking at number above, I would do this:
3x100(20) 1:42 1:40 1:39 this can be done on a send off 2:00
3x100(15) 1:40 1:38 1:37 this can be done on a send off 1:55
3x100(10) 1:37 1:36 1:34, note 1:34 occurs last, this can be done on a send off 1:45
Just a few thoughts, as always, follow instructions of coaches here, not how I would do this. This is just my 2c. On the other hand, you will come around very quickly. EN theory on swimming is true, tested it myself and proved it. In 6 weeks you will be where you left off, after that, I hope you clock in some gravy.
Like the weather was my run workout SHINY!! Both 1,5m intervals felt somehow not as hard as I expected them to be even I was running WAY too fast as I figured out right now!
According to my last 5k test my TP is at 3:52/km but today I was running at 3:44 for the first and 3:47 for the second and it felt like I could go for another one or even more ... Do you think I should somehow correct my pace zones or re-test in better conditions?
Just thinking out loud because my 5k was at about 1°C with almost 90% humidity and this we will most likely not get again until November ...Well after that awesome run I did my swim after work - almost same program as yesterday ... I really felt the workout from yesterday. No powerful strokes - my shoulders felt just "empty". I pushed myself to finish MS1 even though I was WAY slower than yesterday - then added just one 400 and that's it.
Hope these MO-TUE swim combinations will get easier over time. These are killers for me as a bad swimmer.
Crappy weather here makes it easier to take this week as "transition" mentally than I could have asked for. :-) It's 45 and rainy today. Same tomorrow. Snow on Thursday. Can you believe? Maybe it won't actually snow.
Anyway, I swam again today. I accidentally hit "stop" instead of "lap" so I erased one of my 400s and my last 25. Oh well. Total = 3150 SCY.
Highlights were
Probably I'll run tomorrow. No need for me to go bike hard in the rain. Maybe an easy spin on the trainer. Who knows. It's transition! :-)
LOL, ok
, want some donuts!!!! That would be great. In that case, at 24 SPL, pendulum swings the other way. We got a lot of work to do. Matt are you hearing this, Matt!!!!! 
I have 910XT also but I double always in my head and swimmers talk, you are correct is always doubles even stroke rate talk..........I am not a swimmer though, just hang with bunch of little fast fish.
Now I have some stuff going on this evening, but will attempt to slot in the brick run tonight after I get home.
Overall 66', NP 237, IF 0.935. Abbreviated warmup of 5' easy/z1 then 2x3'(1')@z3. Then the main set:
15'(4') @z4 – NP: 256 (IF 1.007), VI 1.00, HR 156/166, cad 90
15'(4') @z4 – NP: 256 (IF 1.007), VI 1.00, HR 168/177, cad 90
15'(4') @z4 – NP: 251 (IF 0.990), VI 1.00, HR 172/179, cad 89
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/295777295
I'm working on it, and seem to be making progress from being normally 11 (22) strokes/length to 10 (20) in the last couple weeks. Interestingly, at least for me, this has not been all the usual pretty body position stuff, but going for that strong deep catch and pull you allude to. If I can get to 9 (18), I'll be pretty happy (and I think a bit faster).
William, we can start another thread elsewhere on this and I can share what I am finding in literature and my work. The answers are not as black and white on that. Many factors play. Be happy to share what I know. Keep up the good work, you'll get there. Keep visiting the pool.
I wonder how to lower that number. Different thread for that discussion.
We are supposed to post workouts here, so I will confess that after my function this evening I did not run but instead went to dinner with my wife. Run wold have been burn 400 cal. Dinner was eat 1000 instead. Crap.
Just finished 10',15',20' Z4 repeats on the trainer and my legs aren't feeling that bad so I'm confident for the first long run tomorrow
Just to share some more metrics of my recent ride:
10' = IF: 0.976 / NP: 312
15' = IF: 0.970 / NP: 310
20' = IF: 0.976 / NP: 312
Total workout: 1:15 / IF: 0.898 / NP:287
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/43BHHU4QJ7KJ2XXCWMPKEAMO64
7:33 average pace. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/296028256
Stefan - hope you don't mind me asking... how old are you? You've got some absolutely awesome numbers out there!
Overall 2500 SCY, avg pace 1:36/100. Avg efficiency 37, 19 strokes/length. Took 1:00 rest between each MS.
Paces:
Warmup 500 – 1:38
MS1:
- 3x100(20), desc – 1:36, 1:35, 1:33
- 3x100(15), desc – 1:38, 1:36, 1:33
- 3x100(10), desc – 1:38, 1:36, 1:34
MS2:
- 4x50(20), desc – 1:33, 1:32, 1:29, 1:27
- 4x50(15), desc – 1:35, 1:33, 1:32, 1:29
- 4x50(10), desc – 1:37, 1:35, 1:34, 1:33
MS3:
- 1x400 – 1:40
Cooldown 100 – 1:39
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/296242670
Now off to NYC!!
@Will - I'm getting 32 just a few days after my A-race this year so I'll take that as my very own b-day present
Using the Aaronson convention of posting pace, not time. Pretty good day...probably due to the low workload this last few days.
500 WU 1:39
3 x 100 (20"): 1:30, 1:28, 1:27
3 x 100 (15"): 1:30, 1:29, 1:27
3 x 100 (10): 1:31, 1:31, 1:29 (oh well)
4 x 50 (20") 1:26, 1:25, 1:22, 1:21
4 x 50 (15") 1:24, 1:25, 1:22, 1:30 (bad touch last one...probably really about 1:24) 1:23 (ok, I can't count.)
At this point a backstroker and another guy jumped in, causing major navigation issues for fast 50s....so last set numbers are all over.
4 x 50 (10") 1:27, 1:26, 1:25, 1:27
Backstroker realizes it's a bad idea to be in this lane. Two other people get out altogether in midst of next 400...and I'm back in the clear. :-)
400 swim: 1:32
400 pull: 1:32
4 x 50 on 1:00 release: 1:26, 1:27, 1:24, 1:26
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/296493056
For the record average stroke per length = "10"...which is pretty good for me, especially considering the threshold speed of the main set...I tend to shorten stroke at higher effort.
Now need to decide if I should try to make up that FTP test during the weekend (which would mean I'd not do one of those rides - most likely the 2h ABP). Thinking to just do the weekend rides as prescribed since I'll end up with more TSS (=more fitness on race day) than doing an FTP test. Though on the other hand, it would be good to do an FTP test outside since my last tests have all been done on the trainer and I know my outdoor FTP must be about 20-25 watts higher. Hmmm decisions decisions...
Overall 8.69 miles in 1:00:02, 6:55 pace. Current training VDOT 52 (z4 – 6:38, z3 – 6:45, z2 – 7:02)
Warmup: 10' @ 6:57
4x 1 miles (0.5 miles) – 6:20, 6:22, 6:27: 6:30
(0.51 mile recoveries 7:37, 8:00, 8:05, 8:01)
Remainder time 8.5' @ 6:43
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/296623638
Good work Matt & Professor. My right calf was very tight today so I skipped the long run and swam tonight. In total did 3000m all pull since I wanted to rest my calf. I was usually doing 20-21 strokes per length.
WU:300m EZ.
MS1: 3 x 400m (30") @ 1:53, 1:51, 1:50 pace. Rest 1' between sets. That extra rest is my one concession to my age.
MS2: 4 x 300m (20") @1:52, 1:51, 1:50, 151 pace. Rest 1' between set.
MS3: 2 x 50m (11") @ 1:36,1:38 pace.
CD: 200 EZ @ 1:57 pace
Total Time: 1:46:28
Distance: 24.74 km
rTSS: 171 (0.93)
NGP: 04:12 min/km
Legs are still ok right now but I feel a little scratching in my throat so I'll see if I skip 2days swim workout as I don't want to mess up my long ride on the weekend.
Thanks Matt - i think that's what I will do this weekend. Weather is calling for a crappy Saturday which will become an indoor training day, thinking about switching Saturday and Sunday training from the plan so doing ABP ride indoor on Saturday, then doing the Sunday ride with FTP test included on Sunday.