Home General Training Discussions

To include zeros or not?

Power noob question....For data averaging on my garmin, do I include zeros or not?  I have been including zeros but my variability index has been in the neighborhood of 1.18.  Just trying to understand if i have my settings correct and it's a function of me learning how to ride more steady.

Comments

  • Mark - definitely include zeros.  Riding steady is a skill that you will develop with practice and persistence.  One quick questions -- is the VI of 1.18 for the interval itself, or the ride in its entirety?  If the latter, do not sweat it (unless it is a Race Rehearsal....in which case, sweat).
  • Gotta do it. If you are coasting, you are coasting and you gotta count it.
  • Thought so...Damn!

    @Joe -  This has been the case for my last 3 ride of 58(1.17), 54(1.19), and 70(1.21) miles.  Not race rehearsals, but never the less, i have work to do to learn how to ride steady.

  • @Mark - Unless it is a Race or a Race Rehearsal, you can't look at the ride as a whole.

    Questions:
    -Do you create intervals on whatever device it is you use to measure your Work?
    -Also, since I see you are in Parker, are these rides "flat"?
    -Have you bought and watched the Power Webinar?
    -Lastly, have you read the "Introduction to Power" post by John Withrow (don't have it bookmarked, but it has been referenced a number of times within the past two months on this forum)?

    Don't worry! You will develop the skill to ride steady. We will help you figure out how to use the data and tools at your disposal to do so. We will help you figure out what average (2sec, 3sec, 10sec) to display, how often to create an interval if doing an ABP ride (2mi, 5mi, 10min, etc), and just as importantly, what GEARING to use for the races you have scheduled.

  • @ Joe - Thanks for your input!

    • I have my garmin setup to autolap every 10 miles (30min)
    • There is actually a fair bit of elevation on the roads i ride.  last ride of 70miles had 4393 in elevation gain
    • Yes, i have the power webinar series.  Just reviewed again this week.
    • Good call on the "intro to power" thread.  I read it while it was active but forgot all about it.

    A couple additional points......I have my garmin set on 3sec recording.  For sure i'm going to change my intervals to something more manageable in the 10-15 minute range.  I think at least part of my problem has to do with me not being clear about the purpose of my ride before i begin.  I find myself going back and forth between steady and ABP.  Riding steady is most definitely a skill i'm going to need to work at to improve.

     

  • Wait....I thought I heard somewhere (can't remember where) that if you do not include zeros, then your power numbers on the head unit while riding will be closer to Pnorm than Pavg?  I have Garmin 800, and I can't find an option to see VI real time, so I just try my best to keep the watts in my goal range.  

    Are you guys saying that I should change something in post-ride analysis (to include zeros....and how would I do that in wko+)?  Or include zeros all the time on my head unit?  

    Totally confused now!!   Dangit....I thought I understood.  


  • Posted By Jeff Leslie on 11 Apr 2013 08:41 PM

    Wait....I thought I heard somewhere (can't remember where) that if you do not include zeros, then your power numbers on the head unit while riding will be closer to Pnorm than Pavg?  I have Garmin 800, and I can't find an option to see VI real time, so I just try my best to keep the watts in my goal range.  

    Are you guys saying that I should change something in post-ride analysis (to include zeros....and how would I do that in wko+)?  Or include zeros all the time on my head unit?  

    Totally confused now!!   Dangit....I thought I understood.  

    While I haven't seen that quote or reference you are.. referring to, my thought on it is this - 

    Always include zero's.  For training rides, your VI is going to be crap anyway, because you are warming up, doing VO2 sets, FTP sets, ABP sets, whatever.  Just the nature of the beast when training because when you are done, you don't have to run afterwards.  So kill yourself when training, burn matches, don't worry about overall VI, and only care about it in cases where you might want to (such as within an FTP interval, for example).

    Racing - completely different animal.  The goal during a race is to finish as fast as possible and save something for the run.  Thats where VI is crucial because it's a measure of how steady you were, and steady = better endurance and energy management.

     

     

  • Actually this is a good discussion.. I live in an area where I have to stop every now and then because of traffic lights and I'm curious how to hit my numbers when I have to stop so often. Obviously for the longer day rides it will be more difficult but the zeros make it tough for the post ride analysis.. Maybe move to Colorado is the answer. lol
  • @Jeff L. (I believe) Norm Power is basically a 30 second average of power without zeros. If you dont have a display that can show that directly, you might be able to approximate it. So on my Powertap LYC (wired) theres no reading for Normalized power, so I can approximate that by setting the display of power to be the average over 30 seconds without zeros. That way I can ride and "see" my NP. Nevertheless the LYC still collects the raw data @ 1 second intervals (adjustable too) and setting the display doesn't affect what I can analyze in software.

    Now whether seeing NP in real time is necessary for riding or racing is another discussion.

  • @Darren - You to enable "auto pause". That will take out your stop light issues....
  • @Dino.. Ya.. I do that.. Still think I'm cheating my workouts though because the darn stop lights give me a rest break.. Gah!
  • I look at it a little differently....I'm pretty good @ steady riding (low VI) in most terrain...rolling hills or flats...however when I get to steeper/longer hills I can't keep my NP in check...this is related to not enough low gears (I use 11/28 & 50/34) & a low w/kg (2.9)....I've ridden IMLP course many times and the hills there are challenging both up/down....the are a few stretches where you're cruising downhill for several miles coasting (> 35 mph) which plays havoc on your VI....on a few of the ups i can't keep NP @ target which drives VI up....on a few rides i've used 2 devices to track NP/VI....one includes 0 and the other not....resulting VI = 1.06 (without 0)....VI=1.18 (with 0)....I understand the need to count 0 so you get an accurate NP & AP which allows you to maximize speed....but not counting 0 helps you judge ride efficiency afterwards....unfortunately VI is not live so it is always a "how did I do on that ride" question....so at the end of the day I race with 0....and use w/o 0 to judge how well I rode

  • Posted By Jeff Leslie on 11 Apr 2013 08:41 PM

    Wait....I thought I heard somewhere (can't remember where) that if you do not include zeros, then your power numbers on the head unit while riding will be closer to Pnorm than Pavg?  I have Garmin 800, and I can't find an option to see VI real time, so I just try my best to keep the watts in my goal range.  

    Are you guys saying that I should change something in post-ride analysis (to include zeros....and how would I do that in wko+)?  Or include zeros all the time on my head unit?  

    Totally confused now!!   Dangit....I thought I understood.  

    Actually you are correct, but it is something from the days when Garmins could only display average power and not Normalized power. Because ultimately what most people wanted to see during training is Normalized power, it turned out by coincidence that setting your average power to be calculated without zeros would give you a number that was closer to Normalized power.

    Nowadays this has become irrelevant since most devices display NP. So, best is to set it to NP including zeros so you get a true evaluation of your interval / ride.

Sign In or Register to comment.