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Having some difficulty with outdoor rides

As I am finally transitioning to outdoor riding, the inevitable adjustment to ride my watts accurately is upon me.  My typical out the door ride typically has some undulating terrain where I climb approximately 80 meters in the first 5 miles then descends approximately 100m for the next  8 miles.  The rest of the 2 hour ride has this similar ascend/descend with undulations that are smaller but contribute to the overall +/- elevation. 

My issues is this:  I am having difficulty hitting consistent wattage due to terrain issues or perhpas poor adjustment to outdoor riding.  For example when I am riding @ 80-85% ABP recently, I warmed up @ 60%FTP for 40', VI 1.15 (there was a large descent @ the 35-40' point.  The next 75minutes I was at 70% FTP, VI 1.1.   I am not clear if this is just my poor first few attempts at adjusting to outdoor riding or whether the terrain elevation change is affecting me.  Perhaps I have my Garmin set wrong?  I have it on a 10s and 30s display as well as instantaneous %FTP.  Should I set it at 3s interval and just pay more attention?  On a second note given the changes in terrain and suboptimal road conditions, I am having even more difficulty hitting the 95-100% FTP.  Should I find a flatter route (requires driving 30') to do my 95-100% FTP or is it simply an adjustment period issue. 

Thanks.

Comments

  • Posted By Kar-Ming Lo on 24 Apr 2013 12:39 PM

    My issues is this:  I am having difficulty hitting consistent wattage due to terrain issues or perhpas poor adjustment to outdoor riding.  For example when I am riding @ 80-85% ABP recently, I warmed up @ 60%FTP for 40', VI 1.15 (there was a large descent @ the 35-40' point.  The next 75minutes I was at 70% FTP, VI 1.1.   I am not clear if this is just my poor first few attempts at adjusting to outdoor riding or whether the terrain elevation change is affecting me.  Perhaps I have my Garmin set wrong?  I have it on a 10s and 30s display as well as instantaneous %FTP.  Should I set it at 3s interval and just pay more attention?  On a second note given the changes in terrain and suboptimal road conditions, I am having even more difficulty hitting the 95-100% FTP.  Should I find a flatter route (requires driving 30') to do my 95-100% FTP or is it simply an adjustment period issue. 

    Thanks.

    There is a lot to discuss here...but I will just concentrate on the display.  There are a lot of techniques here:  1s, 2s, 3s, 10s, 30s....  And all have great reasons for what they do.  I have my Joule on 1s display and am just used to it jumping around.  But it is an exceptionally personal decision.  10s display is WAY too lagging for my tastes.

    I suggest you set up multiple fields and experiment to see what works for you.  You can also do some experiments on the trainer to see how each reacts.  For example, start an interval and ride steady for 10seconds, then hammer it for 10sec, then soft pedal for 10s.  Watch what happens on each of the fields and go from there.

    1.10 VI for the first few rides outside, *especially* on hilly terrain is very good.  You will get better at hitting your power....it just takes practice.



  • Kar-Ming - Almost all of the terrain around my home riding area is the same as yours - glacial moraines, basically. Up until last year, I would drive 20-30 minutes to find "flatter" routes for FTP work. The past two years, I've started doing them on the aptly named Five Mile Road in a local wooded park. No flat areas at all, either up or down. How did I adapt?

    Mainly, I do NOT focus on my watt readings, which I have set at 3s smoothing. Rather, I have a data field set for IF (it can toggle between NP, IF, and TSS, but I prefer to look at the IF so I don't have to think about what my FTP watts number is as it changes over the course of a season). I have a Joule, don['t know what other head units also display this.

    My point is, I just try to keep that number, which changes less quickly after the first couple of minutes, within the 0.95-1.00 range at all times. It's not a perfect 1.0 steady ride, but out of curiosity, I took a look at the last time I did those intervals, and found my VIs  to be 1.03, 1.02, and 1.02

    Another strategy is to use those hills to my advantage. Another spot about 5 miles from my house (so a good warm up and cool down to get there and back) is a hill which is probably in the 80-100 meter range. Depending on where I start, it is 6-8 minutes when done @ FTP. Granted, it's not 20' intervals, but do 5 of those in a row, and you won't notice the difference compared to 2 x 20'. My VIs there were 1.0, 1.03 (I stopped to move some branches in the way), 0.99.

  • Thanks for the input. 

    Al, So is it okay to do climbs at .95-1.0 in lieu of doing them on the flats.  Does that somehow diminish the 95-100% FTP efforts.  I have noticed that due to road conditions I have some difficulty hitting 95-100% FTP.  It would be great to get the 95-100% done on some hill repeats.  


  • Posted By Kar-Ming Lo on 25 Apr 2013 10:38 AM

    Thanks for the input. 

    Al, So is it okay to do climbs at .95-1.0 in lieu of doing them on the flats.  Does that somehow diminish the 95-100% FTP efforts.  I have noticed that due to road conditions I have some difficulty hitting 95-100% FTP.  It would be great to get the 95-100% done on some hill repeats.  

    Yes, hills are very, very good, all the time. 

  • Rolling hills here, too. Many short & steep.

    I just go hard for the intervals. I have a pretty good feel for my FTP effort so I just ride the intervals right at that effort. The numbers take care of themselves once you've done enough rides. I don't worry about VI in training mode....go hard without bowing up on the inclines and work hard on the descents (knowing these #'s will bring stuff down) and flats.

    And just soft pedal on the recovery intervals.
    Work harder at the training part than the 'Perfectly Neat Data Points' part.
  • I think practice will help. I live in similar area as yours (don't we both live on the Eastside of Cleveland?) and completely understand the challenges these roads bring. In my last week's race rehearsal my VI was 1.05 after riding a hilly course with 3500ft of climbing. I thought that was as good as it'll get in terms of VI, key is to really focus and try to hit your targets regardless of whether it's up or down or flat. It does make it a harder training than flat roads to my opinion, as it forces you to ride at a variety of cadences (very high on downhill, very low on steep hills) which you won't really have on flat roads. But I think come race day, this will pay off.

    Similar to setting IF on your garmin, I set a screen with both current 3s watts as well as NP watts. The NP watts are really my interval goal - I know what number to hit. THe current watts I use as a tool to ensure I'm not getting to my NP in an inconsistent fashion, so I don't ride too hard uphill and not hard enough downhill.
  • @ Ben, so I should be targeting my NP to 95-100% and not my AP?  Also are you using a Garmin or Joule.  I didn't know the Garmin would do NP w lap avg.

    BTW, I live in Cleveland Heights.  Aren't you in Mentor?

  • Yes, NP.

    I ride with a Garmin 500 and have an "interval" page set up: gives me current watts, NP for the interval, etc.

    Q for the team: I also have IF on this interval page but it's for the entire ride, not the interval. Anyone know if the 500 will display IF for an interval? 

  • Thanks. I've been doing it all wrong and had been trying to chase a lot of the watts (in hindsight). Final clarification, for racing it is the NP that we want to hit at 80-85% for HIM and 70-75% for IM. I am not sure that I have ever known this or really much thought about it. Thanks as I have a race in a few weeks.

  • Posted By Kar-Ming Lo on 29 Apr 2013 11:40 AM


    ...for racing it is the NP that we want to hit at 80-85% for HIM and 70-75% for IM...
    Correct that it is the NP we are targeting. The exact percentage depends on how long your ride in the race will be. If you don't already have it, you need the Long Course Bike Execution info found in the wiki, in the race execution section of the table of contents.

  • Posted By Kar-Ming Lo on 29 Apr 2013 11:21 AM
    <p>@ Ben, so I should be targeting my NP to 95-100% and not my AP?  Also are you using a Garmin or Joule.  I didn't know the Garmin would do NP w lap avg.</p>
    <p>BTW, I live in Cleveland Heights.  Aren't you in Mentor? </p>
    Yes i am!

  • Posted By Rich Strauss on 29 Apr 2013 11:26 AM
    <p>Yes, NP.</p>
    <p>I ride with a Garmin 500 and have an "interval" page set up: gives me current watts, NP for the interval, etc.</p>
    <p>Q for the team: I also have IF on this interval page but it's for the entire ride, not the interval. Anyone know if the 500 will display IF for an interval? </p>
    Not sure if you can set IF for a lap but you can definitely set NP for a lap. Since you know your FTP, it's easy to know what your IF is. Just a little bit of easy math.
  • Yeah, but I don't want to do math. I want to look down and see a number :-)
  • Kar-Ming, not much to add on the thread above other than to say during your ABP ride each week you should really, REALLY practice riding at constant watt age and low VI. Even on hills. Honestly unless the hills are quite abnormal I suspect you can ride 30' z3 intervals at 1.03 or better with practice.

    Btw are you doing the Little Smokies HIM per your sig? I'll see you there...I'm doing the American Triple-T with fellow ENer Bruce Thompson. You can laugh at us while we try to finish that half-ironman on Sunday...should be fun...and crazy!!
  • Matt, I will be at Little Smokies. You guys are studs for doing the Triple-T. Just look for the bald Chinese guy because there are so many of us in Ohio ;-) I'll be in the purple and pink Eleonore Rocks racing kit. I hear the course is somewhat hilly (including the run).

    The 80% FTP is definitely doable especially after getting out a few more times. It was the 95-100% FTP parts that I couldn't solve as I was having trouble going fast on the flats while avoiding defects in the road and paying attention. I have now been doing them on the hills and it is sooooo much better.
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