Climbing power parameters for IMLP question

trisumai

As I am begin mentally preparing for  LP in 6 weeks, I have a question re: the climbs.  I was wondering with the long climbs ie the first climb out of LP as well as the climb back in. . .what is a good IF to hit for those sections.  For example with the beginning where there are 6 or 8 miles of steady climb which would equate to probably 30-40 minutes, where I am supposed to stay at in regards to my power. .67-68 IF? or do I allow it to go to .85 (thereby letting the IF come down on the descent).  

Scott Alexander

Did you download the "racing with power" webinar?

For a climb, The goal isn't to aim for a specific IF, but to aim for a wattage that's specific for you - and the hill/mountain being tackled.

Since IF is a mathematical equation that covers the ENTIRE ride (unless you have some auto-intervals or -laps), where aiming to increase your overall IF is more difficult over time, watts (usually at least 3-seconds averaged) , would be best to shoot for.

trisumai

I stand corrected. When I meant .67-.68 IF, I actually meant 67-68% FTP. I set my lap to 1 mile laps so I am trying to hit a avg NP for that mile. In my case with a FTP of 260, I figure my IM goal watts would be .72 or 187W. So for the first 45-60 minutes, I am supposed to hit 174-177W (67-68% FTP) however since the first 8 miles is a steady climb, my question is whether I should be riding at 174-177W or 208-221 (80-85% FTP) for this section. In other words, for this course what is JRA. This leads into the general question of: when the climb is significantly longer than the 3' ie 2-3 miles or longer then what is the general range of %FTP that I should aim for.

cgres123

Your aim should be for a nice steady .70 - .72 which ever is your goal. I know the hill and hills and that is going to be quite a challenge to maintain your pacing so I hope your brought the gearing to accomplish that. Sometimes you just will have to do what you have to do to make the hill or fall over on the bike.

Good luck and happy pacing!

Scott Alexander

For me, a big dood (6'1" @ 210ish), getting up a hill is minimizing exactly how much OVER FTP it'll be. I can spin at 40 rpms, and still exceed my FTP.

Each hill you've got to decide what you're willing and able to "spend" to get you over that hill.
-EN guidance is very similar in regards to goal watts+5% or goal watts+10%, depending on the hill.
-For me, with my fat arse, on long hills, I try to target no more than FTP+5%. For short hills, FTP+10%.
On my group rides, I regularly shoot out the back of the pack, but then have no problem pushing up over the top and catching on the downhill or on the next flat.

And just spin! As many teeth on that rear cassette as you can mechanically cram in, the better!

trisumai

@ David/Scott thanks for your replies but I am still a bit confused. I understand the .70-.72 IM goal and target of goal watts +5% but the execution part is what I was wondering about.  I guess my question really is for super long climbs such as the 7-8 miles out of LP, do I ride at the 65-68% FTP or goal +5% (which would be 70-77% FTP? In other words, will riding at goal IM watt + 5% that early in the race for the 7-8 mile climb be detrimental on the second loop or during the run.  I am not too worried about spiking my watts for that climb (and climbing outside the goal +5% target) as I should be able to generate enough power without falling over.  Since we are supposed to start the first 30-60 minutes @ 65-68% FTP, how do I reconcile that first long hill.    Hope that clarifies my confusion.   Thanks again.

John Withrow

Kar-Ming,

None of the hills in the IMUSA course are so steep that you will need to ride at 85% of FTP. How much do you weigh? The first 3 hills before the descent are long-ish, but not super steep. They should all be ridden at Goal Watts + 5% (on the 2nd lap), but on your first loop, these come in the first 20-30 mins, so you should simply be doing your JRA pace (just ride along) so you probably shouldn't even be above goal watts for the day on these hills until the 2nd lap. This means you will be going slow and everyone will be passing you. They will be all hopped up on adrenaline and ready to crush the hills. when you are being passed here, smile and know that you are doing it right!

Also, make sure you have the right Cassette. I was on the course for the first time at the EN camp this past weekend and I don't know why anybody (with less than 4.0W'Kg) would do that course with anything other than an 11-28 cassette.

There is a ton of time to be made up in the last 10-15 miles of the loop by riding up the hills easy and hammering down the hills. If you fry yourself early on, you will be coasting down these hills into the wind and giving up a whole bunch of time...

trisumai

Great. That answers my questions perfectly. I weigh 159# and ride a compact with a 12-25 cogset. I made a math mistake when I wrote 85% FTP (that was for the HIM). So for race until I get to the hills at mile 35 or so, I will be pacing at around 67-70% FTP even on the hills. Thanks so much.

John Withrow

If I were you, I'd get an 11-28 Cassette... Mo' gears are Mo' Better!

And yes, 67-70% on those back hills, including the downhills as you can (should) pedal down all of them as aero as possible.

Coach Rich

Ok, a few notes. 

• IMLP is different in that you're going generally uphill, via rollers, for the first 7-8 miles before a very fast descent of 8-9 miles. This uphill section is exactly at the time that we are telling to chill and ride below your goal watts for the day. Every other course, this is true...but for IMLP, I'd do it a little bit differently:
  
  
  
  
• Let's say that my goal for IMLP is to ride at an IF of .74-75. On any other course, including IMWI, I would ride for the first 30-45' at under 70%, then I would dial in 74-75% and shoot for a very low VI. I might tick up to 80-85% on some of the steeper stuff, I'd stay on the gas the downhills until I spun out and the net is that all of ^this^ would likely sort out to an IF of .74-75 for the ride. However, for IMLP, I would probably dial in 75-80% for this first 7 mile hilly section. So, it's above my JRA of 69-70% but less than what I would do this section at on the 2nd lap, and I know myself enough to know that a calm, controlled, disciplined 75-80% for the first 7 miles of an IM bike leg isn't going to hurt me. I do this because I'm not willing to totally let people walk away from me and I'm also a very good and confident descender so I'll get some of it back on the downhill. Once I bang the left in Keene I'm back to riding how I would ride every other IM course. 
  
  
  
  
• Auto lap: this a good idea but I think every mile is too granular. I created a lap every 30' at IMWI (Joule doesn't have an autolap feature) and this was fine. I would probably do 20' now and I've seen others do every 15'. Bottomline, experiment with this in your training and observe at one length of interval the Pnorm of the interval becomes too sticky and doesn't really capture / make visible mistakes you may be making. 
  
  
  
  
• @JW: we never hammer downhills. We simply maintain our climbing effort across the crest and into the downhill, maintain it (or a touch softer) until we spin out. Then get very aero and coast. So the net is that you're making the climb a little long by extending that climbing effort across the crest and into the downhill. The result, as you know is a huge speed increase that's carried around the course.  

mgraffeo

IMLP 2010. Riding at 5% above JRA watts on one of the longer rollers out of town, down in the aerobars. Had some DB ride up alongsides, and say "wow, aero helmet, disc wheel, nice bike, and you're getting passed this early by and old guy on a road bike. That must feel pretty bad!"

Top of the climb, he was 100 yards in front of me.

Bottom of the descent, he was no less than 1/4 mile behind me. Never saw him again. I believe I finished over an hour ahead of him.

FWIW, while I don't disagree with Rich, I think more athletes make pacing mistakes in the first 7 miles of that course on the first loop than ANYWHERE else. If you're unsure, err on the side of going slightly too conservative there. Make it up on loop #2 if you feel like you way undercooked it.

Al Truscott

(For first timers on the LP course) When Rich talks about "75-80%" on the first hill, remember he's talking about himself, someone who rides a 5 hour and small change IM bike split on the hardest courses eg IM Wisc. YPMV

Keith Wick

If you figure that first climb out of LP is going to take you about 25-30 minutes, then you need to decide if riding 75-80% is going to be good for you given that you plan to spend X amount of time on the bike course. For me- being 6+hrs, I try to stick to an IF of .7 and then see where things are at on the second loop. I then reassess at different points on lap 2, those being (1). on that climb out of LP, (2). on the flat section following the descent-lots of people sitting up here on the 2nd loop so aero and push (up to .75) as the headwinds starting are bad news to the sitting up folks , (3). the back of the out and back to Ausable Forks-I hate that section (4) Climb to Wlmington, (5) the White Face climb. I usually let many people go on the climb out of LP and then being tucked in I retake many on the descent--just like Mike said. It is even more telling on the 2nd loop.

John Withrow

Posted By Rich Strauss on 18 Jun 2013 12:08 PM 

• @JW: we never hammer downhills. We simply maintain our climbing effort across the crest and into the downhill, maintain it (or a touch softer) until we spin out. Then get very aero and coast. So the net is that you're making the climb a little long by extending that climbing effort across the crest and into the downhill. The result, as you know is a huge speed increase that's carried around the course.  

Totally agree that in EN, we don't "Hammer" anywhere on an Ironman bike course.  By "Hamemr Downhills", I simply meant compared to those who are coasting over the top.  For me Hammering the downhills means up to like 75% over the crest and until I spin-out down the hills...  And for most of those hills on the back stretch, that gets us all the way to the bottom of the hill and starts back up the other side.  Sorry for the confusion.

Turby Wright

I looked into an 11-28 cassette after the camp last week and was told I needed a different rear derailleur with a longer bottom piece and a longer chain (I have Ultegra on the bike). Anyone else encounter this?

Peter Wick

Yeah, the derailleurs come in a larger size because the circumference of the cogs having 28 teeth or more are too big. Bummer. That 28, or even the SRAM Wifli cassette with a 32 tooth cog are necessary for those long climbs if you're going to try to keep your wattage on your 70% FTP target. And a compact crankset.

John Withrow

@Turby-- I have a friend who has an Ultegra Rear Deraileur on his Tri bike (Cervelo P2) and on his Road bike (Cervelo R5) and he has used an 11-28 Cassette on both of them. He said it was sometimes a little rough getting into the 28, but in general, had no major issues with it. It might be worth borrowing a 28 tooth cassette from someone to "just see" if it will work as is before you drop a bunch of $$ on a long cage rear deraileur.

Turby Wright

Thanks John! Will definitely give it a try. 

Bridget Pichette

There is no problem with 11-28 on ultegra rear. Just make sure you adjust the B screw so your jockey pulley doesn't hit your cassette.

Good luck.

Peter Greagg

I have an Ultegra 9 speed that will work with a 32 rear — IM Australia has a longish hill that is greater than 15% grade

John Bayone

Turby.
I have an Ultegra Rear Deraileur and have the 11-28 back there and have not had any issue with it.

Turby Wright

Thanks John! I ordered one a couple of days ago.