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Can I afford not to bike for 17 weeks?

As some of you know from my earlier post in the marathon forum, I am giving up triathlon for the rest of this season and focusing on marathon training. The reason is that my wife is expecting our third child in a few days and training on the bike is just too time consuming -- esp in Chicago where you need to drive up to an hour each way to get to really good biking. As a bonus, I eliminate the high-overhead swim training. This is a no-brainer from a family perspective.

I have never done a marathon before and, assuming I don't get injured, I want to have a great race. I have 17 weeks to train and have selected a training plan that will have me running 5 days/week and up to around 55 miles/week. This is a "beginner plan" by the standards of hardcore runners, but an order of magnitude more than I've ever run before.

So the big question...

My plan is literally to do zero biking until the marathon. I realize that'll seriously set me back in terms of bike fitness but I want to take a run at the marathon properly. I'm curious as to if you all think that 17 weeks of no biking will screw me for next year's tri season or if I can build that FTP back up in the Nov-March timeframe on the trainer. I suspect I can build it back but 17 weeks is a long time and run fitness doesn't translate well to the bike at all in terms of muscular adaptations. I could proabbly cut out one of the recovery runs per week (4-5 miles) and add 2 trainer sessions of FTP work on the bike, but not sure that is alogned with really optimizing my maration, plus it adds a net 1.5 hours of training per week.

I'd value the team's thoughts on this.

Many thanks!

Matt

Comments

  • Ideally, you'd like to lose as little from your FTP while spending the minimal time possible on the trainer. That sounds like 105-120% intervals 1-2 times a week. I don't think 20-25 minutes of that stuff each week plus recovery between intervals and appropriate warm-up, cool-down, is going to impact either your marathon training or your family focus.
  • The winter I trained for Boston (pre 2010) was right before I joined EN, but I had a triathon plan in hand. I trained with a peak mileage of ~70 miles per week (achieved 3 different weeks) using a plan based on the Advanced Marathon book. It was a breakthrough race for me (15 min PR) and the beginning of my big breakthrough HIM season. I had my PR at the HIM distance that July, albeit on a flat, easier course. So n=1 and I wasn't starting from the high end performance you are. Also, a lot of those miles were easy pace, not MP or faster.

    December: 2-3 bikes per week, all 60 min or less; 5 runs/week
    January: 2 bikes/week of 60-90 min; 6 run days per week. (a few 2/day)
    Feb: same as Jan
    March: Same as Jan
    Last 3 weeks: 2 swims, 1-2 bikesl 6 run days (Race week 3 swims, 4 runs, 0 bikes)
    All bikes were EN-style, but not the hardest that we do.

    Now, this is higher volume than you want to do...but the point is that instead of super-high volume running (80ish mi/week) peak, I took out one of the days that had some mileage, but not so much quality, shortened one day, and added a couple of moderately good bikes. This was not all junk miles, but it was not the super hard style of long runs that Patrick writes. But I did 5 20+ mile runs if I remember right, very not-EN/MN...but that said, that did start my running breakthrough period. My FTP rose during the build for my HIM, which means I obviously was not in peak biking shape to start.

    That's not the question that you asked, but I can show you my TP account if you want to see what I was up to... What you're planning (low volume) may be the best thing for you and your new baby!

    It's hard for me to believe that you won't come back pretty fast (measured in weeks, not months) to your normal lower pre-outseason FTP after the marathon.

  • I think you'll be fine. After my first summer of doing triathlons, I decided to walk onto my college cross country team ( essentially a run focus plan, 80 plus miles per week). This meant no biking from August - Nov/ December. I think this helped me become a much better triathlete because my running vastly improved and bike fitness came back pretty quick.
  • As the saying goes... it's like riding a bike. It comes back quickly.
  • Matt I gave up biking last year for marathon training too and I hit a PR on two of my running races one being the marathon with a 45 min PR. After the marathon, it was in late Nov, I took a week off and started riding on my trainer a few days per week in Dec. My focus was not pushing watts as much as doing cadence work. I added some watt pushing late in Dec then tested for the JOS and was within 1 watt of where I left off.
  • Matt- If at all possible, might not be a bad idea to get in some trainer stuff, like Al mentioned. i might even go one step further and try Tabata type WKOs. (You can do a search and find loads of info, stats and research on it) There are probably various methods and "tweaks" but I believe the standard is 20 secs "SUPER ON" (like all out, probably way above even VO2) and 10" off. Repeat 8 times. Its harder than it sounds.

    Good luck and we'll be anxious to hear about your marathon!!
  • Here is another N = 1 data point.

    Last year I did the Rev3 Maine Half Ironman on August 26th. After that I took one week totally off, then did a 6 week run focus leading up to a half marathon. I used the half marathon plan from the wiki, which had about 6 runs per week. During that time I did one or two bike workouts on the trainer (usually one per week, a couple of times two per week). I also did wieght training twice per week. Those bike workouts were only about 45 minutes long (sometimes shorter) and included 2 x 8' or 2 x 10' FTP intervals. After the half marathon I had a couple of weeks of unstructured training (2 or three bike workouts a week - same style of intervals as above), then did the FTP test for the November OS. My FTP was almost exactly where I had left off at the end of the previos OS! Your run plan is twice as long as this, but it seems that with some mimimal FTP work on the bike, you might be able to prevent losing too much of that hard-won FTP.

    Indcidentally, I did the run focus plan after this year's OS. After a dissapointing OS in terms of bike FTP improvement, I made some bike gains during the run focus! Perhaps some fatigue wore off, or the bike workouts in the run focus worked for me. They include the 5 x 5' above FTP stuff, similar to the five minute threshold hack in the wiki.

    Good luck with the marathon!
  • Personally, I think if you want to focus on your run, all you will get from FTP intervals on the bike is fatigue that won't help you on race day. It may impact your run training, as you're essentially taking away recovery and replacing it with work. To me, that doesn't make sense. Adding FTP and work means you're putting next year's season at a higher priority than your run, and i understood that's not your intention.

    I'd focus on the run plan and try to execute that as much as possible. Ride the bike when you feel like it, whether it's an easy short recovery ride or you want to do something longer. That gives you flexibility, and if you just leave it optional won't be an issue from a mental perspective when you see your bike performance decline from where you are today.

    My n=1 is that, after doing basically nothing at all for 5 months due to a relocation, your body has enough memory to rebuild bike fitness quickly. And after all that running training you're likely to be a better runner, which means you don't need to have equal bike power to be an equally good triathlete as you are now.
  • I personally don't see anything wrong with "saddle time". Not work, per se, like others are saying. But, for a lot of folks that have a bike layoff, the hardest thing to get used to is being back on the hard ass saddle on your soft ass.

    I say concentrate on your running, but have some willy-nilly bike rides just to keep your undercarriage "hardened". My $.02.
  • Between basically not cycling at all through the fall and winter, than my back injury, I didn't get on the bike until about mid-March and was basically a civilian...or felt like it anyway. My rides at the AZ camp were my first in months and months. I think my FTP was probably about 230w vs the ~300w I'm able to get to when training consistently. 

    I kicked the crap out of myself in April and my numbers from rides I repeat weekly went up about 5w per week. Less consistent in May and June is looking pretty good. I'm back up to ~28-285w right now. The kg is another story... That said, the above was in a state of basically untrained. I did nothing, at all, for several months before getting back on the bike. 

    The net, as others have said, is that once you have it you'll get much of it back pretty quickly. But I can tell you that the last 15-20w just sucks. It takes a LOT of work, just as it always does. 

  • I should add that while training for that half marathon, my run workouts felt great, and I set a huge PR in the race. While I was doing some minimal FTP work on the bike, it was nothing like the OS, and had minimal, if any, impact on my running. But apparently just enough to preserve some bike fitness.
  • Matt,

    I too find my bike fitness comes back reatively fast even after long lay offs of 8-12 weeks of not much.  If you want to take a shot at a marathon plan and dedicate yourself to running then do it.  If the larger concern is next years tri season then work in a bike or 2 OS or GFP on the trainer knowing that it will affect the running and fatigue levels. 

    Gordon

  • Thanks all for the input. Much appreciated. After a lot of reflection I'm going to go wth the zero biking approach.

    It won't be exactly zero because I do plan to get out on the bike recreationally from time to time, but totally opportunistically and not trying to work it into any formalized workout plan and certainly not trying to hit any power numbers. In fact I am committed to not putting power on my computer screen if/when I get out there on the bike.

    Of course if I get injured then the plan is subject to change...

    I'll keep you all posted!!
  • "opportunistically "- you will fry yourself at least desired time........My 2c, if you do something, do it right, drop it. I agree totally with Ben, above. You should be resting hard to run well. It will beat you up. You should be setting aside time to stretch, roll, massage........every recovery technique under the sun. Cycling eats into running and running eats into cycling. Swimming if done right is not recovery work either, contrary to popular belief, dropping it is a good thing. Now, go run and I am expecting sub 3, nothing less. No excuses.

  • yeah, thanks for keeping me honest Aleks!!

    5 mile recovery pace today then tomorrow 13 miler with 8 miles at MP...if I do this right I won't feel like biking much...
  • @ Matt- an update on my n=1. I was in a bike accident last summer that put me down for 5 months. Prior to the accident I had my highest bike fitness (300 FTP) and decent Vdot (46 @ marathon distance). I was basically in full on healing mode until Christmas Day. I did a conventional out season starting with the JOS group for 12 weeks, I started the OS at 210 FTP and ended with a 250 FTP. In April I went into a full on running plan for a 10 week build to a BQ attempt for the middle of June. I did zero biking but ran 6 days per week with an average of 65 miles per week. I built my marathon distance Vdot to 48 and did a -11:45 BQ marathon on June 16th. The next two weeks were devoted to the swim and bike with 4 90 min FTP workouts and one outside ride per week. Yesterday I tested again and was amazed with a 285 FTP. So don't worry about loosing everything you've build on the bike. If you a running hard the bike fitness will return quickly. Good luck at Chicago and congrats on the baby.
  • @ Matt: I think part of the reason why bike fitness comes back so quickly is because you can basically murder yourself with intervals and such with very little risk of getting injured (compared to running). 

    That said, keep us posted on how your running goes. I remember you mentioning that you've had trouble with higher mileage, so maybe this might increase your durability if you up your training load carefully? You're a strong runner and I'm guessing that you might be hitting the point of diminishing returns at some point (if not already), so sharpening your run-specific fitness with a run-focused block will probably move you a notch up as a triathlete since cycling fitness comes back relatively quickly.

  • Thanks for the additional replies guys. I'm getting every more confident about my no-biking decision, although man do I ever have a lot of time on my hands. This is nuts, I feel like I've done nothing despite running 41 miles this week (my highest-mileage week EVER).

    @ Anson, durability is my single largest concern. The key for me will be to throttle back and not crank out every run at MP or faster as I do in tri training. I joined a running group for long runs and signed up to be in the 7:30 pace group which is the fastest of the range of recommended long run times for me. I showed up today and I was the only one so I joined the 8:00 group. I had 15 miles scheduled so I did the 8 miles they had scheduled then ran at 7:29 pace with a guy from the group for another 2, then he turned around and I did my remaining 4 miles at 6:58. That was a great run where -- as my plan recommends -- I built the pace over the course of the run. But I didn't go out and run 7:00 pace for the whole 14 which I'd have done if I was by myself. So hopefully I can throttle back on the long runs and become more durable.
  • Matt - I think you'll be fine not biking; the FTP will return with the OS next winter.  Use the extra time to stretch, foam roll, and rock that new baby.

    My concern for you is that you will need to be very careful about the pace of your workouts.  You have a tendency to go Z4 pace DURING THE WARMUP.  I saw many posts in the Spring HIM thread from you this year where that was the case.  As you wisely note above, you will need to back off the pace on the longer marathon training runs or you increase the risk of getting injured.  As you build the weekly mileage for the marathon, you have back off the pace on most, but not all, the miles.  One speed workout/week is plenty.  Also, you can throw in some EN style strides on the longer runs for variety, & to use some different muscles.  Just remember: on the days you plan says "easy run", make it easy.

  • This is an old thread...but one other point that I've found important. The cross training aspect is critical when you are logging that many miles running. When I did run only training I was constantly battling nagging ankle or knee injuries, but when I introduced or swapped in a swim or bike workout, the injuries seemed to subside. Sample of 1, but I have witnessed this multiple times.
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