Bike Test indoors
Rich... This is not taking off smoothly, I am going through stressful times trying to learn the ropes the EN system, it is affecting both my training and my other life. Unfortunately only 2 days ago I managed to get the Bike testing done (not that it is an EN's fault). I know there is no other way around it, and that learning how to train with watts requires an upfront investment and I know the faster I learn the sooner I will feel better, but WILL I BE READY for IMKY?
- After finally sorting out the Computrainer issues and testing on the bike, now I have been struggling for almost 3 hours trying to figure out how to upload a Computrainer file into the WKO+ It shows it is uploading but the file is empty, though it opens fine in the CT software?! I emailed CT support but I am sure they will come back to me saying check with WKO support.
- I also looked and could not find where it says on the "WKO+ help menu" how to create a range for the 42' as per page 56 of the EN long course Tri bike manual.
- When you test indoors, does it matter if you use a fan or not? I did not use one, and I am thinking of the impact on HR values.
- When you use Powertap in testing (I used it along with the CT for another point of reference) should you include Zeros in the Power Speed and Cadence averaging? I did not
- I ended up with 44:20 min on the PT, does 44 versus 42 make a difference? I have 42 min on the CT, so maybe the PT factored in the time before I hit the CT start button.
- Do you take splits for the 20' 2' 20' on the PT? I did not because I thought I could view this in the Power agent under Details by selecting to view any length of intervals i wish.
- I used my polar HR and downloaded the HR manually. is this Ok?
- I uploaded the PT file successfully into the WKO+, but because my Powertap cadence sensor is not working it did not give all the necessary info for the quadrant analysis and i had removed the CT cadence sensor
Very unhappy and frustrated Myrna because after 2 weeks, she still has not figured out her magical FTP number to train with!
Comments
Myrna
First off, I am NOT a power user YET - will be immediately following my HIM in New Orleans in April. However, I CAN give you a few thoughts regarding your questions: first ott, I don't think you need to worry about HR AND Power at the same time...use power, ditch HR when on the bike. The reason to have power is to measure work output instead of measuring your body's response to that work (which is HR). Ditch that HR monitor on the bike...there's one issue resolved. Secondly, I think you need to pick one or the other, the computrainer or the power tap. During your winter months, use the computrainer because most (if not all) of your rides will be indoors. When you use 2 measuring devices, there will always be competing results...none of these devices are perfect anyway. So, pick one, and JUST one. I can't give you any thoughts on WKO+ because I don't use it yet. On being ready for IM KY...that is in August, isn't it? You have all the time in the world before then...you will be ready. I have heard from many that learning to train with power takes a little time, but, that is the price of training 'right' I guess...and, you have plenty of time and plenty of training opportunities to learn to get it right. It really won't be until Race Rehearsal #1 that you really HAVE to have it right...and you have a LONG time before then.
Keep up the good work...keep up the faith in EN...and keep your head on straight and you'll be in great shape come IM KY in August!
since you've uploaded the PT file into WKO, the easiest way to look at your test is to go to the graph. in there you can highlight the entire test and as you do, the box on the lower left will be putting the numbers in for what you are highlighting. Since it reads 44:xx minutes, you'll have to look at the graph to see where you actually started and finished the test. if you were noodling around at the start or cooling down at the end, this will be registered in the total time. The PT records data whenever the wheel is spinning. Your FTP using this graphing method is your NP (Normalized Power), not average power.
i would also suggest that while you are learning power, pay attention to the major factors, not the intricate details. you'll get these little details eventually, but if you focus on them now you'll add to your stress level and miss out on the big picture of power training that your looking for. the only thing that matters is the FTP (NP value) you'll find from the PT download graph thing i mentioned above. then go into the data tool and plug that number in (the other numbers you need to input--HR, cadence, distance, etc. don't matter as they are so influenced by diet, type of trainer used, wind/temp. conditions....you can even make them up in the data tool--just get the FTP right.)
i agree with the above statement of picking which numbers you want to use--the CT or the Powertap. i'm not familar with the CT, so i can't comment on that. however, given the troubles you've had with it, i'd suggest using the PT as your primary power device. you'll be converting solely to the PT eventually when you transition from inside to outside, so why not get used to it now instead of having to potentially repeat your frustration in another month.
the other question is where are you located? it maybe that you have another EN member who lives near you who'd be willing to come over one day for 2 hours to help give you a crash course on the PT, CT, etc. i know i learn better by doing/being shown than by reading and then going to figure it out. you'll get there. there's lots to absorb--think big details first------"there's no sense in worrying about the earings and necklace for the dinner party when you don't have a dress and are going to the party naked"
-keith
I am not sure we are on the same planet. You suggest that |I should forget about the HR, when the bike test calls for it! in fact the average HR is the LTHR as per the test instructions "MS: Then time ¬¬trial 40' Hard-Very Hard, as if racing. Take average heart rate for the test. This is your LTHR. CD: Easy spin"
I had to use the two devices PT and CT as this is my first test with EN and both machines have been given me a hard time. I needed a point of reference to validate the test and to have an alternative in case one of the two failed me during the test. I worry about being ready for IMKY because for my 1st IM I had a 28 weeks plan!
I did not post in the Weekly input or Macro thread because my question is related to Power. Rich reads the top tier of the forum, and "Power and Pace" is the 2nd entry in the top tier. "If you look at the structure of the forums here, Patrick and I basically focus our attention to the forums in that top tier. The other forums are primarily for members to connect with each other about their training, racing, etc. Patrick and I do not monitor these forums for training questions, only dropping in from time to time to say hi make sure the kids haven't written on the walls, etc :-)"
I assumed people in this forum are already hooked up and smoothly navigating the site. I was hoping that someone could reply from a technical point of view and walk me through the WKO+, since my question was basic.
I am keen on getting proper results since all future trainings hinge on the test numbers. It has nothing to do with personal choices here (fan or no fan). I wanted to make sure that my HR did not get affected since I had no fan. Same as if you are riding with wind or hills etc. After all the test needs to be the most accurate, isn't it?!
The zeros in the PT is an option you can turn off and on in your device manager. If you have it off when you are coasting it will not pick up info (at least that's what I was told) It has nothing to do with what you are talking about "zero the torque before the start of a workout"
No I did not do a 4 minutes rest and I explained what must have happened. It picked up two minutes before the actual start of the CT and I was wondering if this could impact the test and if I had to maybe redo it.
I read in the Endurance Nation Long course Triathlon Training manual on page 56 this: "Download your ride file. Using WKO+ create a range for the 42' of the test (yes work and rest. Consult the WKO+ help menus if you don't know how to create a range.) your normalized Power Pnorm for this 42' is your FTP."
So average Power helps calculating FTP but is not FTP and I don’t understand why I have to worry about creating a range if WKO+ takes the whole segment of a file and does the computation?
According to the WKO+ menu: The quadrant analysis requires data from both the cadence and Power channels. And since I did not have a functioning cadence device it did negatively affect the cumulative results. So cadence in the test is needed.
I never blamed EN, I always have the option to leave, there are so many training options out there. And I think sticking to it and enduring all the pain of starting my plan is a testimony to my faith in EN. And I had even said in my 1st post (not that it is an EN's fault). Please understand I am in the professional field of coaching myself and my choice to stay with EN is a very informative one (I researched a lot before hoping on the train) I just want to do things right. EN is not my frustration, time is. I lack time and time is needed to investigate things and to learn how to do things. If I vent it out here please do not get offended, I need your encouraging words not your reprisal.
I thank you for all "the hand holding" and the team spirit, sometimes we all lose patience and I am somewhat there now.
All I need is a little more technical guidance and to really start my training.
Keith thank you, just read your comments, I live very far at the moment I am working in Bahrain and that's miles and miles away. Not one single person i know bikes and can help me. There isn't even a decent biking shop here. The CT and PT support in teh US have been great I have managed to fix many issues just by email. Still working on the cadence sensor, though I might end up having to send it back for repairs.
Myrna,
You've gotten some good advice so far. These are my notes:
Basically, slow down, take a deep breath, and get excited about doing some work to learn how to fully leverage the significant investment you've made in training and racing with power.
More:
Power Webinar
Fan or no fan: YES TO FAN!! As many as you can put on yourself. A cooler Myrna = you'll be able to push more watts and that's a good thing.
LTHR: understand that every test has a option for power users (you) and HR users (everyone else). You only do one test. For you, power and your FTP are your primary tools. Would be nice if you were also able to extract your LTHR from the test and calc those zones also. You'll find it's helpful to be able to view and track power (objective metric) next to heart rate (subjective metric, affected by lots of stuff like heat, see fan comment above), as you'll learn more about both. That said, many of the power athletes who've been training with power for a while don't bother to track heart rate all. This is an evolution, personal choice, etc
Cadence and quadrant analysis: we don't do anything with quadrant analysis here. Don't worry about it. Bonus if you can get cadence to work, but don't sweat if if you can't.
Zero torque. I think you are confusing two separate issues:
- it doesn't matter what you have recorded onto your PT when you test, once you download, you can always pick the section you want to view in detail.
-I turn on the PT as soon as I start pedaling.
---- press and hold left button until you see "INT 1" show up left side of center line, do your warm up
---- when you are ready to move on to your interval (or test), quickly press both buttons at once. Now you are in "INT 2"
---- do the double button press any time you want to separate out data.
Personally, I make the 20-2-20 all separate intervals. That way when I am peeking at Avg watts during either 20' segment, I know where I am at.
After downloading to WKO+:
--use your cursor to highlight the 42' section if you broke it up the way I described, or if you for got to press buttons before or after starting.
--In the column to the L of the graph, there will be a blue highlight that says "Selection" (sometimes you have to scroll up or down to find the word)
--I usually rename it so that it saves, then I look at the data displayed down below on the left column
-- here is your Norm Power that is now your 100%FTP that you will base your future interval workouts on (until you test again)
I do not have a CT, so I can't help you with that. If this was not what you needed, I apologize and hope that it can help someone else.
After every download, I clear my PT (once I am sure it is saved in WKO+). I do it through PowerAgent, but it can be done manually.
I read everything about training with power, in and out of the EN forum, before I got my PT. So I felt like I was very familiar with everything before I ever put my hands on the gear. Give yourself time, you have time to get it right long before IMKY.
TRUE, I am working to close my knowledge gaps and YES you are the place to learn about power training!
I am a businesswoman and I seek ROI, on any investment I make, including time investment! I have no problem reading and learning. In fact I am an eternal student, still studying till this day. But efficiency is the name of the game. I read for 3 hours today (and I am not dumb!) yet I did not find what I was looking for, and that was a frustrating time with no ROI! Glad you are pointing me in the right direction (your webinar and the Allen Cogan book)
CT or PT? PT NOT CT. I bought the CT when I broke my wrist, and it has been very useful when I broke 2 other bones at different times, it allowed me to ride indoors until I healed. Now I only use CT if I have to: bad weather, riding a Real video course, test.
This is what I did.
HOW??
i learned that the hard way today!!
I was hoping so! And that’s why I posted here.
If I have to create time which I don’t have, then it has to be on the expense of something else: Training is the one thing that does not affect others in my personal and business life. No proper training = no proper racing = possibly skipping IMKY. And that’s fine assuming the knowledge I gain in Power training outweighs the pleasure of shaving minutes of my IMWA time.
I can only get excited if after spending hours reading I can say I learned something. This morning it just was NOT the case!
I thought that could make a difference!
Yes I was thinking of that when I asked about the fan.
Most likely I will do the same later on, but at this stage suggesting to a newbie, doing her 1st test, that she should forget about the HR was very confusing.
I saw that in the WKO+. and it is my mistake to assume that by endorsing WKO, EN and WKO think the same!
Not at all, read my post, I am on the same page as you on this one! Someone else was confusing this issue and I was clarifying what you just reinforced
I know how to do that I do it every now and then, I was told it is not necessary to do it every single time.
Yes and that’s what I wrote. Logically, from all what i learned about PT, including or not including zeroes should affect the numbers. I will inquire with PT support on that one.
Thanks again for the time Rich!
yes Right on! Thank you.
Yes that’s what I wrote in my 1st post. “I thought I could view this in the Power agent under Details by selecting to view any interval length I wish.”
[Recording intervals: You call intervals what I call splits. I know how to do this, and, as you mentioned, it is very helpful when riding. I opted not to do it in the test, keeping my focus on pedaling, watching current not average watts on my monitor.
You are saying I can select my intervals in the WKO+ the same way I do in the Power Agent. Am I right?
I will do the steps you recommend and will post if I encounter problems.
You have been very helpful thank you on behalf of everyone who will benefit from your post
I too clear my PT after download using the Power Agent.
I learned quite a bit about the PT since November. Now I need to master ANALYZING the data and properly using the WKO+ that’s where all the beef is. If I cannot interpret data what’s the point? How will I improve? This is my only chance to progress on the bike, and I will do so even if I have to compromise my training hours and eventually forgo IMKY.
Thank you everyone, it helps mentally to know you are confident I could be ready to race in August... After all, who knows and who said that 28 weeks of training is a key plan!
Plus, as you probably already know, WKO+ is a great central point to capture your running and swimming data as well as the bike info. If you do that you are getting a much better, truer TSS number.
I also rarely, if ever, hit the interval buttons - there is enough stuff going on during my rides without worrying about interval buttons, Power Agent vs. WKO+ etc. Plus I can always highlight and analyze any portion of the ride via WKO+ later, after the ride is done.
I suggest you key in on the power numbers and let the rest soak in as you get more and more comfortable using this stuff. Like many of us, it sounds like you have enough going on without making training a second job.
Take care.
Note: Where do i find this under what tab? in what section? your input will save me a bit of time searching. Thanks
Go to the WKO+ Help/User Guide. Then search for download Power Tap data. Click on Power Tap and follow the instructions.
Take care.
P.S. You mentioned wanting the capability to analyze and understand the power data. There are a number of levels of analysis. I believe that it is definitely important to understand NP and other watts data in order to determine FTP.
However, if you are looking to quickly analyze TSS, ATL and CTL I wish you luck. I read much on these subjects and found the best method for me, personally, was to just watch my data over six months or a year of training for specific events, going through the OS, builds, tapers etc. to see exactly how the data points changed with training inputs, volume and effort. After close to a year of watching the data, I now believe I have a much better handle on what are my numbers mean to me in relation to race readiness, overtraining, rests etc.
And as the late, great Dr. George Sheehan once said, each of us is an experiment of one.
Here is the txt right from the user guide
To create a range
1) Place your pointer on the area of the graph you want to highlight.
2) Left click and hold down on the left button.
3) Drag to the right or left to ‘highlight’ the area.
4) Let go of the left button.
5) Notice in the ranges window, there is now a “selection” highlighted. You can see the details of this “selection” in the bottom half of the ranges window. Use Control + R to create a “New Range” OR go to Edit/Create Range. A new range appears in the list and you can label that range however you wish. For example: 10minute LT interval.
Your little bit of time invested now will save you hours and hours later this summer. Relax, I'm doing Lou as well we got 6 whole months that is a ton of time.
Dan, what you describe is exactly how you select intervals in the Power Agent. and apparently the WKO does the rest once you select the length of interval. I thought there was much more to it. In fact now I understand: if you you have not taken 20'2'20' separate intervals and you have one 42' uninterrupted interval of 42' then this step is not needed. Hope to meet you in Louisville if I make it!
Michelle, I managed but I could not follow your instructions, I think we have different versions of the WKO. On my screen everything is to the right and there is no "Selection button" I have ranges to rename after I select an interval. and yes there is a box at the bottom displaying all sorts of info. FTP VI TSS
Thank you all !
It sounds like you are tight on time. I would definitely recommend looking at power data while reading the book and power series info. I also look at the data everyone else posts just to work on my skills.
Come back and ask away. I think you did a great job of listing each issue separately instead of in 1 big paragraph (which is too hard to follow). It does suck to do this long distance and under time pressure. I had the luxury of learning power slowly. I can only imagine the pressure you feel to get it all down.
Michelle, even though what you wrote applied to an older version it still gave me clues about what i should be looking for, and helped me manage. I will follow your advice and that of others in focusing on power data in my readings, and yes it sucks big big time being so tight on time, working somewhere no one understands or shares your IM passion.
Thank you for the support
1 - Uninstall both your current build of WKO+ v3.0 and Device Agent v3
2 - Go to c:Program FilesTrainingPeaksWKO+ and make sure there are NO files or folders in that directory, if you see any files or folders, delete them all
3 - Re-download and reinstall the latest builds of WKO+/DA v3 from here: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/wko-desktop-software/download.aspx
Make sure that you have administrator privileges for your Windows user profile. Failure to do this will cause the program to not install properly. From the link above, you will be able to download the install files for the latest builds of WKO+ v3 and Device Agent v3 (make sure to select Save, not Run, if you have an option). Download the install files to your computer. Make sure that no other software that talks to your downloadable training devices is open, then install the new builds.
"As far as including zeros or not, PowerAgent always includes them. The option is to include them in your CPU readings or not. Its only going to involve including your stopped time in reference to average speed and coasting in reference to average watts and cadence. If you're on a trainer, you may or may not have coasting, but I think including zeros is usually a good idea just so that it matches up to what PowerAgent says."
Also since we use WKO+ for our data analysis, I don't even include PowerAgent in the mix.
P.S. In one of your most recent posts you mentioned that you figured out how to download your Computrainer data into WKO+. I think Rich might have mentioned previously that you probably want to just stick to one data source - your PowerTap - for consistency of data. That seemed like sound advice.
Take care.