Need some feedback and a few questions (maybe a lot)
Today I rode for 4hrs at 80%-85% (30mins wu of course) and here are my stats.
FTP 212
| Avg Power: | 172 W |
| Max Power: | 675 W |
| Max Avg Power (20 min): | 165 W |
| Normalized Power (NP): | 180 W |
| Intensity Factor (IF): | 0.847 |
| Training Stress Score (TSS): | 237.4 |
| Avg HR: | 131 bpm |
| Max HR: | 155 bpm |
I dont know where that max power came from but its pretty high....
I know Al told me to get do an FTP test on the road but it wasnt a choice for me last week so definitely next week!
I tried hold back on the hills and I noticed I was going at 10kph(6mph) on some hills and putting out 200-300w+ maybe more cadence was probably around high 70 low 80. I do have a compact crank with 12-28 cassette (granny gear 
)
Questions
Do you guys experience this going up? Or am I really weak? I was playing around with the TSS chart and I couldnt really hold anything under 200w on some hills or Id be sliding back.
How are you supposed to feel at the end of these tempo rides? I wasnt too fatigue like I was pushing hard. I think I could probably have hold that pace for ironman distance. (again this could be cause I did my FTP test on the trainer but I just want to know how you feel in general).
My heart rate felt really low! I cant tell if Im really fit or Im fatigue this week. My long run was thursday 2hrs, rode 3hrs on friday and 4hrs today. Id be going up the hill with 300w on my head unit and my hr would only be at 140ish... I was feeling a little short of breath, not because I was exerting a lot of effort but because sometime during that ride I just couldnt catch my breath even in flat and when we just left the parking lot.
This is probably in the WIKI but while Im searching the answer for this I might as well ask it here. What is ENs baseline for VI? A few friends have told me 1.05 is a really good VI.
Can somebody school me what TSS means?! Ive been trying to read up about it and I cannot get what it means
My intake today was 2kirkland bottle (changing to gatorade endurance) and peed 4x in 4hrs ride. Once every hour. Urine color was white. Am I over hydrated? or just enough? Pee probably last 30-1min max.
I probably have more just cant remember them all now!
Thanks Team!
Comments
Hard call as that depends on your fitness level as we all have our own. If you have been biking for only a max of 2 hours for a long ride then do 4 hr endurance fest you will feel spent.
Heart rate is a funny thing and could vary due to may factors such as sleep and hydration. A better parameter would be RPE, and by what you wrote it seems your RPE was/is high as it should be you workouts Thur, Fri and Sat are substantial.
Basically, By definition, one hour spent at Functional Threshold Power (FTP) is equal to 100 points.
Your friends are correct if your VI was over 1.05 ,for over an hour ride, that is an indacation your FTP would need to be bumped up.
As per the WIKI I would do a sweat test so you have a better handle on your hydration level. My 2 cent is you are over hydrated with peeing so much as I would not want to run with all that fluid sloshing around my stomach.
Hope this helps.
@David, if your IF (intensity factor) is over 1.0, you need an FTP bump. If your VI (variability index) is over one, that's an indication of how "spikey" or "surgey" you're riding.
Dave thanks very much for your reply!
Thank you scott!
Regarding your VI question. There is a big difference between VI on an ABP ride and a VI during a race. VI is basically NP/AP. Your AP (Average Power) is what actually determines how fast you get around the course and your NP (Normalized Power) is a reflection of the physiological cost to your body on average. And TSS (Training Stress Score) is a function of your IF x Time spent, where your IF is your NP/FTP. Your TSS is basically one number that gives you the total physiological cost to your body from your entire ride given your current fitness/FTP level). I realize those are a lot of letters, but just know that a high VI means you taxed your legs a lot relative to the average speed you attained on the course. So for hilly courses like Placid or Wisconsin, a VI of 1.05 might actually be decent, however for IMFL or IMAZ it would actually be quite high. It sounds like you still need to learn how to ride steady which takes a lot of focus. You basically need to keep your nose pinned to your computer while going up those steep hills and don't let yourself spike your power. In your 34/28 lowest gear combo you can go as low as like a 45 cadence if need be to keep your power in check. You also need to focus on not getting lazy and coasting on the downhills as a low VI is about being steady the whole time whether that is going up, down, or flat. With a bit of practice and a LOT of focus, your VI will come down in no time.
However, keep in mind, once you learn this skill, you can turn it on and off like a mental light switch. I have this skill now so basically I only use it for Race Rehearsals and for actual races. During ABP training rides I actually spike my power up while hammering up most hills and push whenever I can and don't worry about coasting on some downhills if I need a short rest. I do this because I'm trying to maximize the physiological cost to my legs in the minimal amount of training time that I actually have to train (the opposite of racing). It is totally common for me to see a VI of 1.10-1.15 during an ABP ride and I have seen as high as 1.20 in a road bike race. This is a great way to build fitness and confidence on hills.
Another thing, if you are not that tired after doing an 85% ABP ride for 4 hours then your FTP is likely higher than what you tested on the trainer. I have pretty good fitness and would be pretty shelled after a ride like that.
Hey John
Thank you for your reply! As you can see I am a total beginner about power. I just got mine last month and Ive been reading racing with powermeter by coggan and the other guy.
So if I am understanding this correctly.
I need to retest my ftp on the road. (this weds I promise!)
On ABP ride I dont actually need to have a 1.05 VI. The higher VI the better. But on race day I have to watch my watts so I can have good VI closer to 1 (my race btw is cedar point full which is 1400feet elevation. 500ft more feet than IM florida). so what if my ironman pace watts is 160, would I constantly need to be pedaling to keep my Ave watts and NP the same? Im not sure if Im correct but the lower my cadence go (going up the hill) the higher my power spike. When you say no coasting in the downhill, do you mean during training? Cause I assume coasting downhill would save your legs more in the race? If I maximize my legs during the ABP rides then Id be going beyond 80-85% of the prescribed work out? Ive actually been watching my power the whole ride on sunday and let my group leave me because I was going so slow on the hills! Sorry for too many questions! I wanna ace this weekend rides so I can build more FTP and smart during race day!
Thanks John!
Retest on the road and let's us know how you did.
Absolutely do not need to keep your VI at 1.05 for your ABP rides in my opinion. BUT, the caveat is that this assumes that you already know how to ride steady If you want to. I don't get the impression that you have mastered this art yet so this will be a balancing act between getting more work in and learning to ride steady. Might be good to practice the riding steady by yourself on the Saturday ride, then just try to keep up with the group on the Sunday ride. Pushing yourself to keep up with stronger riders is an awesome (and fun) way to build bike fitness quickly.
That race will seem almost perfectly flat so keeping a low VI (close to 1.01 or 1.02) should be your goal and this should be attainable.
The higher your effort going uphills, the higher your power spike, period. If your cadence is dropping too low, then you need more gears. You control how much power you put into the pedals. Pedal softer to keep your power at your goal, unless you will fall over because you are going too slow. During a race, you should NOT coast downhills unless you have spun out of your biggest gear (say above 105 cadence or so). To smooth your power, you pedal easier going up the hill, going through all of your gears if you have to, then as you start to crest the hill, you start to go back through your gears to keep your power up at your goal, then you continue pedaling at this effort as you go through all of your gears until you spin out going down. This is what we call "flattening the hills". Your body won't know that you just went up then crested, then went down. All it knows is that you pedaled at 160W, the 160W, then 160W. Most people make the mistake of going too hard going up the hill, then they are exhausted when they approach the top, so they mentally ease off when they can see the top, then they coast down the other side to 'save' there legs. So maybe they go up the hill at 8mph, crest it at 10mph, then within 15s of coasting downhill they are up to 17mph, then eventually get up to like 25mph depending on how long the hill is. Sound familiar? What we do in EN while racing is to go say 7mph up the hill, but then crest it at 14mph, then are immediately up to 17mph within 3s, the get to 25mph within 10s and carry that extra speed all the way down the other side of the hill getting to whatever your terminal velocity is much quicker. It's about the same net average speed to get over the entire hill our way (maybe faster), but the physiological cost to our legs is much lower the EN way. This would be no big deal on a Sprint or OLY race or even a 2-3 hour training ride. But in a Half-IM and especially after a 5.5-7.5 hr IM bike leg it really has time to manifest itself because all of those little power spikes you get riding up the hills hard really add up to tax your legs. When you have to run a marathon in the heat of the afternoon, you will be glad you eliminated all of those spikes on the bike.
Regarding you going above 80-85% on your prescribed workout, if you can be well above 80-85% on a 4 hr ABP ride, I will re-iterate that your FTP is likely wrong. Also, this doesn't mean that you can't ever go above that in an ABP training ride, it means at the end of the ride, your average NP should shake out to be in that range.
I think you would benefit from listening to the Power webinar. You'll get more 'practical' power knowledge out of that in 2 hrs than you will in the 20 hrs it will take to get through Coggin's book.
You stand upto your title aswicked smart member! Youexplained it very well. I had an idea what flattening the hill was but now i fully understand it!
What is purpose of the saturday ride ? It only say 75%-80% ftp. What should my lone focus on thisride?
My ftpmost likely wrong cause it felt somewhat easy and i felt like i had to hold back to bring my IF.
While my RR amd IM is many more weeks away maybe its still safe to ask this question.
Which one should i watch the most during rr and IM race? Tss? If? Np? Ave power?
At what % should i be biking to be able to run a good marathon? According to the book which they based it on EN was 65%-70%. Would like to hear your input. Thanks again!
Jayson - specifically in reference to your questions about how to execute the bike on IM race day in order to have a good run - here's the tortuous path thru the wiki to the secret decoder ring which makes that decision easy for you:
Wiki - Table of contents>>Race Execution>> @ bottom, look for "Advanced...">>> click on "Ironman How To..."..2/3rds of the way down, Find "Additional IM Bike...", click on "Half and Full Ironman Bike Execution">>This gets you to a download page; in the "Pack", you're looking for the "Coaches Call", a series of powerpoint slides. Look at all of them, but the chart on page 7 is the key. Take some time to figure it out, it's based on how long you expect to take to do the bike leg, which you'll have a much better feel for after your race rehearsals.
As to what metrics to look @ on race day, here's the party line: if you have the ability to set an auto-interval on your computer, or can do it manually yourself, break the race up short 15-30 minute intervals, maybe 5-10 miles long. Note on that chart mentioned above, that IF is really the key metric we're using to keep ourselves on target for the day. If you can display IF for the interval, that's a key number, along with current (3 sec average) watts. If you can't display IF, then NP is a good choice; if you can't show that for the interval, then Average Power will have to do. HR is also a good number to keep an eye on.
Don't worry about TSS until after the race. Don't pay attention to your speed or time; just pay attention to the watts and IF. If you want to work on keeping steady, display both average power and normalized power. The closer those numbers are, the lower your VI will be during an interval.
Oh, and while you're traveling thru the wiki to the above item, bear in mind that ALL of the pages you are clicking through should be read and absorbed as you are preparing yourself to race - they contain key information about all aspects of Race Day Execution, which is EN's Secret Sauce.
And get that FTP road test done ASAP - your FTP is higher than you think it is!
I numbered your specific questions above... and here are my thoughts:
1) For me, the Saturday ride is about riding steady in specific zones held for specific amounts of time. This is training you body ride steady and to know what those zones feel like and to get positional fitness, etc. As a corollary, my Sunday ABP ride is where I have a little more fun, go like hell the whole time and try to bump my fitness and win some Strava KOM's...
2) yup. (FWIW, on the ABP rides for me, there is no holding back. "Always Be Pushing")
3) There are a couple of threads on this if you do a search, but this is a bit of a personal preference. I for one have my computer set to auto-lap every 2 miles (but am considering going to 4 mile laps for Placid). I constantly stare at my 3s Power, and my Lap NP which gives me a very small "box" to focus on/in all day. I also keep a close eye on Cadence, and a distant eye on HR. I don't use IF... I do the math ahead of time and target a specific NP. Then I refine this NP target with my RR's.
4) See Al's post for this. I will add that the RR's will tell you a lot more about your ~6hr fitness than an equation which extrapolates your estimated FTP that you found with a 20 min test, but % of FTP give you a pretty good starting point...
I am not sure I share the phrase "no holding back" on ABP rides. To me, that evokes riding as hard as one can, which necessarily means a fade. However, if your FTP is right, 80-85% definitely feels like "work". And if you can legitimately do hour-long stretches at that power, you're doing well. But John obviously is serious about what he's doing
As far as TSS points go for a race, that's kind of an after-the-fact thing for most people. Staying on target watts will get you the proper TSS region. For an IM, you are shooting for about 280 TSS points (and for a HIM about 180 TSS points). The trick is that you have to have a reasonable guess of your finishing time to guess an IF properly, but the neighborhoold of 70% is what you can do for about a 5:45 and slower race. If you are faster, you can "afford" a few more watts because you are doing them for a shorter period of time. But in summary for execution, Al is right.
Hey sorry Ive been missing for awihle but its been busy and I actually got a lot of things done.
NEW FTP!! 242w!! from 212w on the trainer!
I looked at the chart I want to make sure that I understand it correctly. So if I want to aim for a 6hrs bike ride, Ill have to have X amount of TSS in the reasonable IF (70%-75%)? If I keep hitting that same IF at certain watts would the expected TSS and time come up? Is that how I come up with the target TSS on race day?
I have garmin 800. In the first page I have watts in 3s interval, cadence, speed, work out time and heart rate. Second page I have Apower, IF, normalized power.
John,
Im gonna do what your gonna do to learn that "switching on and off" skill. So for saturday rides, will be more focus on "flattening" the hills, control the VI, watch the watts while hitting the work outs at 75-80% (the recommended target for the day). While on sunday, play with the big boys and survive it for 3hrs! What if I switch the time between saturday and sunday? 3hrs saturday and 4hrs sunday, I guess theres no real effect in me rather than a really tired legs?
what is FWIW?
I think im gonna try and keep up with my faster rider. It sort of make sense to me cause I noticed in the run many months back I was a slower runner and all I did all winter was keep up with the faster ones.
I followed your advice and just let go the todays ride.
here are my numbers. I might be limping for a couple of days lol
I switched the hours for saturday and sunday. Instead of 4hrs steady at 75%-80% I only rode for 3hrs and used the 4hrs as "no zone ride". Does that affect anything?
How do I determine what IF I should aim for?
If I coast too much on the downhill, which one gets affected? My avepower or NP?
thanks!