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  • I don't think you can say one style is better than the other. I think it's person dependent. I use a deep arm pull and can generate a tremendous amount of power during the catch and pull phase. Doesn't seem to bother me with endurance swimming. Tried the high elbow technique and didn't like it. Didn't feel like I was generating enough power.
  • Its worth at least thinking about, considering the source. Gary Hall was arguably the best swimmer in the world in 1969-70, with multiple NCAA titles, and world records in 200 fly, 200&400 IM, leadoff swimmer on 4x200 free relay, along with 5 Olympic gold medals. He swam for Doc counsilman @ Indiana U, who literally wrote the book (The Science of Swimming) on technique. Hall was smart enough to make to it to and thru med school, was an ophthalmologist for decades, and now is a world,class coach in Florida. Point is, he's had a lifetime to think about and analyze stuff like this. His ideas about frontal resistence, breathing more frequently (like every stroke), et al for triathletes are worth pondering, IMO. But like everything in swimming, applying them takes a lot of practice, arm and upper body supple strength, core stabilization.

    John, I hear you about feeling stronger with a deeper pull. I have the same sensation. Hall admits that's true, but it is outweighed by the reduction in frontal resistence accomplished by high elbows. So each stroke IS generating less power, but you can do more of them and present a smaller surface area to,the water at your leading edge. Remember, water is 800-1000 times denser than air, so water resistence is way bigger deal for swimmers than for cyclists. In addition, you spend less time pushing DOWN on the water at the start of each stroke, which does nothing to move you forward, and may even disrupt a flat body position.

    I'm no longer strong enough to get a good quick grip on the water with an initial high elbow, so,I tend to wobble back and forth a bit with my hand at the start of my pull. I use paddles,without a strap, to try and build the stroke into my brain. I do 1-2 50s after warm up and between the elements of a main set with the paddles. Without the strap, you've got to get a good quick grip on the water, pushing/pulling back, not down, or they slip off the hands.
  • It depends on your body type which type of swim stroke may be beneficial for you. It depends on how flexible you are too. Lets say you have spent some time in the weight room and your a little thicker around the shoulder area. Entering the water for a set up swim stroke with your hand for example, it really would not be in your best interest to stretch your arm out beyond your comfort level as being an age group athlete, work with the best you have.
  • I don't know enough about the subtle mechanics, but I believe that most people are better off working on overall form to minimize drag (usually in the form of dragging legs that result in a large amount of frontal area exposed to oncoming water, or core strength to keep the shoulders and hips lined up during rotation) as opposed to worrying about high or low elbow, which only seems to make a significant difference at the pointy end of the spectrum of swimmers.

    Just my $0.02
  • I appreciate the discussion. John k. Is one of our fastest swimmers, if not the fastest, so we should factor that in. Personally, i feel like a get enough force from high elbows. For me, i am thinking my upper body could not handle the deep pull. Maybe i'll experiment in the off season and see if my shoulder falls apart.
  • I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. A person has to do what works for them. To many variables to account for, kick speed, trunk/ shoulder rotation, flexibility, etc. the only way to figure it out is to swim and swim some more. That means in the OS.
  • The topic has been hot in swimming community now for some time. There is a clear background to this. First, I highly recommend pulling up under water videos of 1500m swimmers, than had over and look 50m/100m recordings.

    Al gives a nice intro to GH Sr. I do not need to go there. Little recent reflection on discussion with USA Swimming, articles written in Advanced Freestyle Manual from ASCA, Distance Training School......all of which I use almost daily in my work:

    Deep, straight arm pull is a product of NCAA short course swimming. With certain body types, like Nathan Adrian....it has been found that force generation has been higher as that type catch recruits more motor units from back muscles far deeper and in greater numbers than high elbow catch does. As such, you all know the byproduct of that is, far higher rate of lactic acid accumulation, exceeding body's ability to clear. Usually that catch type is associated with flatter shoulder driven freestyle. It has been found that even elite level swimmers coming out NCAA ranks do not always do well swimming that stroke in LC pools. Nathan Adrian has been trained and uses 3 different free strokes in the span of 100 LC race..........there is a reason for it.

    Overwhelming majority of middle distance and distance freestylers including top two, Yang and Cochran swim high elbow catch. Please pull up Barcelona videos, some awesome footage of that. High elbow catch is usually coupled with hip driven free, far more efficient for distance free, far more sustainable stroke........

    While I am not a fast swimmer, I run the training program for a medium size Level 3 team. I am a team development coach and spend fair amount time looking at trends in order to bring it to the team level. None of our Senior swimmers use that stroke at this point. 

    This is only one angle to it. USA Swimming has much written about it. This not the only correct answer, just my 2 cents.


  • Posted By Ryan Miller on 04 Aug 2013 09:45 PM


    I don't know enough about the subtle mechanics, but I believe that most people are better off working on overall form to minimize drag (usually in the form of dragging legs that result in a large amount of frontal area exposed to oncoming water, or core strength to keep the shoulders and hips lined up during rotation) as opposed to worrying about high or low elbow, which only seems to make a significant difference at the pointy end of the spectrum of swimmers.



    Just my $0.02

    Ryan,

    If you read Sheila Taormina's book you'll see she strongly emphasizes not worrying about the lower body as that will come around once you have the upper body mechanics better figured out.

  • For correct approach to stroke development, even at non pointy end of the field, after body position is achieved, side to side balance addressed properly, catch+pull are very next in line. That is not left on the table for some other time or somebody else. Without that work, it leaves one's stroke incomplete or underdeveloped, whether you are at the front or the end, technique should be the best it can be. This is an appropriate subject for all levels of swimmers.

    Dropped elbow is a technique flaw. That is not to be mistaken for straight arm pull that leaves elbow in a relatively lower position, that is legitimate technique variation. Dropped elbow in swimming world is flawed catch+initial pull.......Not the same.

  • Appreciate the discussion. My knowledge of stroke mechanics lags significantly behind my understanding of some of the intricacies of the other 2 sports, and is very evident in my swim placement versus that of my bike and run.

    I did a 5-week 1-on-1 program focusing on technique earlier in the year and was taught the high elbow pull. Since then, I have gone backwards a bit for a variety of reasons and also have done some experimentation with other pull techniques. All I can say is that for *me*, the high elbow pull seems to be significantly better. Recently I have noticed that I have transitioned back to a deep arm pull instead of high elbow, primarily because I find I get much better hip rotation out of the deep arm pull and I tend to swim flatter with high elbows. I'm perceiving the hip rotation as key to me right now because I have a truly atrocious kick that I have been spending a *lot* of time on, and I find that a more exaggerated rotation helps my kick have a more even beat to it than less rotation for reasons that are probably obvious to someone who understands swimming mechanics, but not to me.

    However, the end result is that I've noticed a dramatic slump in my times. Despite feeling far more powerful on each stroke and I'm sure improving my SWOLF score due to lower cadence, I'm losing up to 30 seconds on my 500 time over the high elbow. Everything far more powerful and fluid than the perceived weaker high elbow, but for me, it's plainly not faster.
  • I'd have to agree with Aleksandar about importance of body position and side to side symmetry etc. @Trevor, when working on stroke mechanics shouldn't focus on time. Focus on form. Often time slows because the technique is not natural or fluid. As you continue to practice it becomes more natural. I usually spend October- Dec/Jan working on technique and yes my times usually slow down
  • Swimsmooth has a reasonable discussion about there being different optimal strokes for different people and purposes. I won't try to summarize (and they are trying to sell something), but it's worth a read.

    I am a pretty mediocre swimmer, so I'll say that up front. My physiology (whether from genetics or from being older) won't let me do the classic perfect high elbow catch, but I suspect it's genetic because my uberswimming 12 year old daughter swims like me in the shoulders and elbows (only a lot better). Anyway, my point in bringing this up is that I went through the Taormina book on catch and high elbows, and even though I can't do it quite right, it still helped me to improve. I got a little faster on a lot less work, compared to last year.

    The drag issue with deep pull also becomes more important when you are sufficiently strong/efficient that your hand is always moving forward in the water (even when you are pulling "back"). Efficient strong swimmers pull their hand out of the water ahead of where it went in...so the drag on the hand/arm matters. This will obviously be less important for those of us who aren't quite there yet.
  • @William, totally on tangent here, off subject, were you in Topeka last weekend for Central Zone Champs. I was with my 10 year old snot rocket, she swam for MVS.

  • @Alexander - I will send you a PM. Short answer is yes I was there. :-)
  • previous statement was incorrect. I do in fact have a high elbow pull. Maybe when looking at it before I was a sloppy high elbow which gave the impression of deep pull.
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