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Training/Racing the KONA/IMFL double.

Looking for a discussion on training,racing,executing the KONA/IMFL double IM's 3 weeks apart with those that have done IM races this close together , or those who have thoughts and theories on how it should be done.

Background.  Racing M50-54 AG , KQ'ed @ IMTX with 10:22 , 3rd year EN , started 6 IM's so far and finished 5 , these will be #'s 7 and 8. Broke my clavicle 7 weeks ago in a bike crash, surgery was 6 weeks ago , but at this point believed to be a non-issue.

Goal for KONA ... Enjoy the day, or as Jay Lakamp says DNH (do no harm). So the real goal is to get thru the 26.2 marathon without digging myself a hole I can't get out of within 3 weeks.

Goals for IMFL .... Race to my potential believed to be around 10hrs at this venue... A KQ here is unlikely but possible once you start getting under 10hrs in my AG.

Training Plan....  Using the same structure I did for IMTX.

Mon- Swim only / Tues - FTP bike-short run / Weds swim-FTP run / Thurs- V02bike-short run / Fri-swim only /  Sat- Longbike/short brick / Sun- longrun day done as split runs AM/PM

 Periodizing time/distance/intensity of the S/B/R for peak and taper.... Planning my biggest week 2 weeks before KONA (5 before IMFL) with 1 week taper while in KONA.   After KONA- week 1 very easy SBR sessions , week 2 introduce the intensity back , finish up the week with medium length longbike/longrun.  3rd week and last before IMFL will follow my usual taper protocol with all short sessions including some intensity.

Execution for KONA....Keeping with the DNH theme and not racing, looking to get thru the day with minimal TSS....  Not too worried about the swim or the bike but since its cumulative will back off both of those a little bit.

The swim- Line up on the left and off the front , I've heard this is a little longer but cleaner swim in KONA- will swim relatively hard @ maybe 95% and not worry about time.

The Bike- Usually I aim for around .75 on an IM from what I believe my FTP to be at the time but the numbers I run on race day are completely derived from my longbike NP.  I use 5 autolap feature and work the NP window with a few percent range swing.  Currently my longbikes are around NP175 and would be aiming to do KONA in the mid to high 160's.... This would be about a 5% reduction in what I believe I could ride and probably wouldnt even cost more than 10minutes?  

The Run- Here is where I need to be careful. I think I can run 4hrs or less in KONA.. Several 4hr runs in the heat IMLOU and IMTX confirmed with vdot back this up... So what should I run?..... Thinking 30seconds per mile slower .... Instead of 30 steps per aid station going to 45 and reducing my run pace by 15sec per mile...

KONA results executed at 95% vs 100%????  maybe 3-4 minutes in the swim , 10-15 on the bike , 10-15 on the run , total 30 minutes??? 

IMFL Execution...  Goal to get near 10hrs or under will need PR's across the board.  

Swim-  line up about 1/3-2/3 to the right and upfront (did this in 2011 with a 1:06 swim) will swim hard and try for a PR.

T1- hope for warm weather and transition like I did at IMTX

Bike- Aim around .75 or around NP 172 at the moment (rode IMTX at NP172).

T2 - no weather factor just go fast

Run- settle into my EP early and stay there should net me my PR under 3:52.

Questions , comments , suggestions , regarding any part?

 

Comments

  • Ive never done IMs that close together, but I have done HIMs 1-3 weeks apart, as well as HIM 3 weeks before IMs.

    My thoughts, first KONA execution...aim for mid Zone 1 HR, Hitting high Z1 at the end, keep HR below Z2 for the run as strategy to DNH.

    Between IMs...no need for run longer than 13 mi/105 min whichever comes first, and only one of those. Instead of 4.5 hour bike, get in 2x3 hr bike each week, aiming for 0.75-0.8 as much as possible, with 30 min race pace brick after one of those. Pay frequent attention to ALL the little signs of over reaching ... Sleep, HR, weight loss, mental motivation, grumpiness, deep sense of fatigue, and always be ready to skip a day.
  • For clarity .. I meant mid zone 1 on bike , drifting up to top of range, for DNH strategy.

    Humility and a smile out there on the Queen K, biking or running.
  • Tim, I concur with the go easy at Kona, hard at Florida approach. But then there is the Joe Bonness method. He has done numerous, back to back IMs at a high level. As one example, in his 50s in 2007 - Kona age group champion in 9:48, then just one week later, he won the GFT OVERALL in 9:38, then 13 days later he won his age group at IMFL in 9:23, then one week later he faltered and lost the AG title at the world 70.3 champs in 4:17. That is how it is done! He doesn't speak directly of his approach, but he builds a GINORMOUS base, peaks for Kona, then just goes lightly between races as he is still in peak form. That, of course, is super human. You haven't heard much from him in the past two years cause he was hit twice by cars in less than a year, but I understand he intends to come back when he is 60 which I think is 2015/16.
  • @Al Do you believe a DNH strategy is more cardiovascular or muscular?

    I dont use HR but will use a healthy dose of RPE to back up my power/pace. Yesterday's ride was at the top end of my Z2 @ NP175 again , if I pace KONA at top Z1 bottom Z2 around NP 165 that should be "relatively" easy. The KONA run should be well into Z1 LRP+30-60 seconds.

    For the run DNH.... Which do you think would be better, slowing down 15 sec per mile while running between aid stations ? Or walking the additional 15 sec per aid station?

    Training between the 2 IM's..... my plan was to cap the longrun at 90min and will keep that... I like your 2 x 3 hr bike and will implement that.

    @Paul... Joe is a badass. Love to see him come back and glad he is above my AG. This will be an interesting experiment this year to say the least. I have done an OLY race 4 times within 2-3 weeks of an IM (that was raced hard) with very good results. But I usually feel that my power/pace comes back faster than my endurance after an IM. Of course this will be different being done at say 90-95% instead of 100%.... I felt so good just a couple days after my DNF in Coz ...
  • Tim, I agree with Al where the first kona execution will probably impose its own will. In other words, there's an inevitable cold kiss of reality for even the most ambitious of racers when they get on the island and / or course that tells them that an aggressive race is just not in the cards. That being said, I don't think you should hold back on the run on that day with the hope that you'll be banking somethink for the next race - the whole day creates a big crater whether you are at your most conservative or your most ambitious.

    As for the turnaround, I can offer my experiences with similarly-spaced races. This approach may or may not be for you, but it fit me (of course, I was under 40o when I did this, and I don't know if I could manage today). Key points:

    -Rest could not be more important. Get an extra hour of sleep nightly if you can. Do whatever you need to (sound masking, eye cover, any other sleep tricks, exactly same time to bed/wake) in order to make the quality of your sleep post-kona as high as possible. If it gets in the way of training, that's fine.
    -Best quality fuel and nutrition rebuilding. If you're a "I eat well 88% of the time" kind of guy, become a "I eat well 96% of the time" guy for those three weeks.
    -Immediately after Kona: yoga or daily flexibility. Yoga is preferable as its great to re attenuate your brain to your broken body.
    -I start running no later than the wed after the race, with 30 - 60 mins daily of easy stuff for week 1, focussing on turnover and form. Week 2 is as normal, up tpo about 6 h running, and the long run and Fast Run are replaced by sessions of 60-90 mins with a lot of HMP. otherwise, frequency. Week 3 is taper as written.
    -I'm the last person you want to listen to regarding the swim, but practice has been nothing week 1, 3 x week as in schedule week 2, high frequency but short (and even daily) during taper week.
    -I like to get back on the bike and ride long as Saturday = 5h and Sun = 3h the weekend after the race. The following week, the midweek is abp, and the weekend is Sat 3h as negative split / abp, and Sun 90 ABP.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how you turn this around between races!



  • I'm confused. Why does one work their ass off to get to Kona and then decide that they're not going to give it 100percent ? Why are you choosing Fla over Kona as your "A" race?
  • @ John - can't speak for Tim, but if I ever get to Kona I intend to go about 2 hours slower than normal...70% effort at best. I will start on the far left well to the back and bring up the rear on the swim. Bike easy, and maybe stop to take a few pictures...and have spectators take pictures of me! Then jog/walk the marathon and chat it up with all the volunteers and spectators. Podium would never be in the cards, nor a fast time given the heat, so why bust your ass? Nobody really cares anyway...for Kona the destination is the thing and the result not important unless you place high or DNF. For all the rest, this is when you take the time to soak up the atmosphere and enjoy the fruit of all the hard work that got you there. That's my take on the world anyway.
  • x2 on what Paul said.

    I took a camera with me all day. Got some great pictures during the swim and the bike. Stopped at Hawi and had random spectator take picture at turnaround....then got picture in front of Energy Lab sign....

    Totally enjoyed the day and didn't sweat the time.

    Besides, when you finish 'after the pack', you get the finisher's chute all to yourself!

  • Posted By John Kitchen on 13 Sep 2013 02:07 PM


    I'm confused. Why does one work their ass off to get to Kona and then decide that they're not going to give it 100percent ? Why are you choosing Fla over Kona as your "A" race?

    From a dispositional standpoint, I think a lot of people make "Enjoying the Day" the primary state of mind, and that displaces "race to place/win."  After turning themselves inside out for years to get there, they want to celebrate it.  They don't dog the day, but they aren't pushing the way they were in FL/CdA/SUI/Wherever.   

    More to my comment, though, is "the cold kiss" where the person who was a RACER on the plane flight over gets on the Queen K for their first bike shakeout, and within 5 minutes realizes "this is hot like I've never experienced" and has gone through their 3 bike bottles before they have even started to sweat.  Then 5 minutes later, realize they are pedaling into a crosswind that's somehow also a headwind as well as a localized mini-cyclone.  And they are pedaling downhill at 75% ftp but going 5mph.  Then they get passed by a German dude/frau who is pushing 53/11 with no apparent effort and has 2% bf.   Somewhere along that stretch is when they start to rethink things from a place of "I'll push on the 12th and be a Kona hero"  to "I'll be humble and leave a lot in the tank until I get out of the Energy Lab on the run return."    (at least that was my lesson!)



  • Ditto to what Paul and Dave both said. I learned that the hard way - the first time out,, I had a great race, 1/2 hour slower than my usual time, and really enjoyed myself. The next time, I got full of myself, and hit a DNF. After the following year's DNS due to bike accident, the next time I realised just being there was success, and came in a full hour slower than previously, and felt just fine about the whole deal.

    In Tim's case, he's trying to get back there, I presume, via Florida, so doesn't want to bugger that chance by killing himself on Hawaii. I've had the same deal with IM AZ, although I have 2-3 more weeks to play with between the races.

     

  • I'm not criticizing Tim. Hope it wasnt taken that way. I was just more curious not just by his post but also from responses. Indicated that this was common practice, to just enjoy the day.i had no idea
  • @JK no worries at all.....

    For me its the Journey not the destination... It was all about the KQ for me.... I would rather KQ x number of times than go to KONA x number of times .... That is why I wanted to race IMMT so bad was for the attempt at a KQ even though I would have had to pass it up... Yes I worked my butt off at IMTX had the race of my life with a 2nd place finish and 10:22....3rd place was 22min behind me but.... 1st place was Rusty Robertson who was 26 min in front of me at IMTX(might as well have been in the next state I wasnt even in his zipcode) ..... in KONA he was 20th @ KONA you are a little fish again .... I think I can put together another KQ but I wont fool myself into thinking I can actually compete in KONA....

    As far as IMFL.... well KQ's there are insane so I'm really just gonna go for a PR and see what happens.... After that my focus for KQ will be IMTX then IMCHOO in 2014...

    @ Dave Tallo... you know I read everything you say/write multiple times... I will go over your comments more in the next few days again... I'm not afraid of KONA heat , IMTX , IMLOU, experience aand reduced effort should I should be fine.... If all goes well and I feel fine I will probably run harder than initially intended and have a better race than planned but will still be looking to get thru it without damage to my IMFL attempt.... The training in between seemed heavy (I dont even do back to back rides on sat/sun now) but will see how I am feeling.... Thanks for the comments and suggestions they mean a lot!
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