How to Train/Race with 5pt vdot discrepancy

kimmydct

So as I am sitting here "squirreling" around as I call it, I realized my 5k vdot is about 5 pts higher than my 13.1mi vdot. I should have suspected this and always just manually adjusted (or cut myself slack) on the z2/3 paces dictated when basing those zones off my 5k vdot. I'm guessing I might narrow the gap a bit after my next half Mary, but just wondering, in theory, how does one addresss this in training and racing? Do I train based on 5k vdot, but race based on longer vdot for longer races? Or once I start training for 70.3 or IM, do I used the lower vdot for both training and racing? Or just "wing it" like I have been?

Al Truscott

Posted By Kim DuBord on 07 Sep 2013 02:02 PM


... Do I train based on 5k vdot, but race based on longer vdot for longer races?...

This is what I do. To paraphrase Yogi Berra, 50% of getting the HM time closer to your capability per your 5K VDOT is 90% mental. The other 50% is just putting in the miles, years of weekly long runs, tempo runs, and interval sets. It's pretty common to have a HM VDOT be 1-3 points lower than a 5K. I suspect for them to be the same, you'd have to be running 50-75 miles a week pretty much year round. And who wants to do that? Not me, for sure.

Peter Greagg

What Al said.

tim cronk

@Kim.... My vdot is actually the same at both distances.... However training wise I seem to have no problem hitting Z4/Z5 intervals but the longer Z2/Z3 intervals are usually 15-20 sec per minute off. Proving what Al said about it being a mental thing , but I'd like to add that its also physical. I feel that if I forced myself to run those Z2/Z3 longer intervals @ pace my recovery would suffer ( plus they just seem impossible until race day). So I accept that and allow the slower paces. Without thinking Zones I try to picture it this way, we all have an absolute power or pace @ test distance , but its up to us thru training to determine what that sustainable power or pace is at each distance or time frame.

To answer your question . I would most definitely use your 5K vdot for all Z4/Z5 intervals since those all end up being less than 3.1 miles , but use your HM vdot for all your longer Z2/Z3 intervals. Good luck narrowing the gap on your next HM .

Al Truscott

Hmmm. Good observations, Tim. I think for someone like Kim with such a broad difference in VDOTs, your method makes sense. I also notice it is much harder to hit paces as the work interval get longer and the pace gets slower.

My approach is not to "allow" the slower pace, though. In my effort to get "faster" at the longer paces, I will adopt shorter intervals, and/or take advantage of walking 20-30 steps every mile. Eg, if the wko is 2x(20' min@ MP, 20 min LRP, I may do that as 2 miles @ MP, which for me is 15:30-16 min, and build weekly from there. I follow the axiom that, "to get faster, you have to go faster".

cgres123

Like you I find I cannot run a 5K Vdot at any other distance besides a 5k but that is the way it is suppose to be as per the WIKI there is an offset of 2/2.5 points for a marathon and 1/1.5 for a HM.
I also find in training, as Tim and AL have said it is through training, you will find your own Vdot that works for you at other distances whether it be for running, duathlon or tris it is a personal science.
What the wiki reads is nice for a ball park but as an individual , rubber to the road, we all have our own issues with endurance.
One thing I find that works for me, to some extent, is train at pace, not that I hold all the paces, and race at HR especially when it is above 60 degrees everything changes the hotter it gets.
Know your HR for training bring it to the table for racing when you see your Z4 hr hanging around too long there is going to be a melt down coming pretty quick unless you are in a short race or almost done.
It is always better to go slower as you can speed up at the end than go faster up front and suffer at the end.

kimmydct

Great feedback everyone! I appreciate it.

David- re: HR. I don't even have my Garmin set to display HR while I run, that's how little I use it. (I'm totally a slave to pace) Will adjust Garmin next run and start using that as well.

I'll let you know the outcome of my Half. (The other alternative to a faster Half is to just do a slower 5k

RHolmes

I hadn't given this much thought...except for the fact that I do find some of those Z2/Z3 paces harder to hold...esp training in Texas heat in the summer. So, this was an encouraging thread to know that I'm actually doing ok...and to have confidence that I'll find the numbers that work for me. I usually want it to be an exact science, and it's a good reminder that it's not!

Steve West

@ Kim - if you are new to running with HR, continue what you normally do for pacing (time +/or RPE) and get used to looking at HR and how those numbers relate to RPE.

After a while you will be able to guess what your HR is at any RPE and you will understand how your body is responding to different paces, grade, , temps, and humidity.

kimmydct

Update: Dropped my half marathon time from 2:31:14 (vdot 27.59) last year to 2:25:41(vdot 28.88) this year. My 5k vdot is now 32 so the gap is closing...

Joseph Lombardi

I believe that a vDot gap or variandce gives you guidance on training emphasis or needs...(its like MaxVO2 and FTP)....if the gap between those is very wide (ie. high 5k generated vdot...and low vdot from HM or M performance..)...it means you have good short speed but need to build stamina...which is not endurance...it is endurance at speed...an ideal or perfect performance curve...your marathon vdot is the same as your 5k vdot......

Peter Greagg

Great to hear that Kim.
Keep up the good work!