Regaining Lost Speed?
I thought I would reference this Power and Pace thread here, as my comments on it are more related to changes with age than the actual topic first raised there.
The subject discussed is the persistent one of when and how much to emphasize Interval Pace (IP) run workouts vs Threshold Pace (TP). For athletes who are racing at slower than marathon, or even easy (long run) pace, why should we bother with training sets at much faster speeds, in my case, 6:20 min/mi compared to my race speed of 9:15. And, as we lose the high end with age, and operate with cardiovascular systems which might be more susceptible to such stress, shouldn't we just let it go?
I've been doing 4-8 weeks of focused IP work faithfully for the past ten years. My times for the IM marathon have been slowly gettng faster over the past 4-5 years. I think there may be a connection. Because we inevitably lose with age some of the natural muscle growth stimulating hormones HGH and testosterone, we may be able to counteract some of that inevitable lose of muscle strength with a judicious dose of IP work, just like a little weight lifting can help.
Comments
My takeaway is that whether it be age or injury that slows us down, getting that speed back, or slowing the decline is a difficult process and a constant war that must continually fought. But I do seem to have much more luck when I mix the faster stuff into the mix than not. Plus it tends to make the longer runs more enjoyable and turns them into an interesting mix rather than a slow slog where the effort slowly gets tougher and the speed decreases as the the run progresses. And I think that the speedier efforts provide almost as much benefit to the mind as the body.
Al, I believe our main hope in maintaining at least a proportion of our previous speeds is a continual dose of speedwork throughout the year.
That is my n=1 analysis.
P.S. I chuckle when I see the young, fast hard bodies racing and get the impression that I, as a slow old fart, am invisible to them. I watch them and remember when I was somewhere in that mix over the past 33 years of running, and then wonder if 33 years from now they will be where I am now, or will they have moved on to a sofa, reliving their old glories instead of establishing new ones.
Keep rocking!
Al T--When I click on your link, I go here-- FYI. I think I found the thread in P&P you are referring to, but repost if you have a chance.
I read this last night, and I've been stewing on it, since there is so much to think/ask about.
Al T--at what place in your schedule have you traditionally done the IP work? What does your bike workouts look like during that phase? Typical FT kind of riding? I know the VO2max bike block, coupled with the IP running work killed me.
I think a lot about what has happened to my running in the past decade or so. I looked up the result last night, and ~10 years ago, my best 5K time was 21:13 (6:50 pace). Now it's ~24:30 (7:53 pace). Truthfully, that current pace is really an all-out effort with a lot of encouragement from my friend Rich who I have been running the tests with. Left on my own, I'm sure I'd come in more closely to an 8:15 pace. That's a HUGE slow down int he past 10 years. (OK, I"m up about 8 lbs too, but I'm working on that!)
The "slide" began when I started doing long course triathlon. When I was running ~21' for 5K, I just ran. That was my focus. I was running in the 1:40s for HM times. For me, these were good running times. Now I have trouble recovering from it all, and my legs are NEVER fresh enough--and I, in total, never feel fresh enough--to run the training paces needed to really get faster. My legs are always thrashed in some way or another. They feel older and less resilient. I am always aware of not boogering the workouts downstream by going too hard in one discipline, and my running has taken a hit in order to be able to train the three sports.
However....this thread is making me re-think the run focus a little. Keep talking, people!
Tell me what you think.
The intensity of the IP would seem, if running will influence it at all, to more likely to have a stressor effect to increase HGH production. Crossfit and heavy powerlifting seems to have a greater influence over hormonal production than easy lifting I'm guessing due to a "survival" mechanism from the intensity/stress.
I've only been an endurance athlete for a few years and did mostly 80% or less efforts based upon HR and never got faster for years. I now hold paces on the run, even at a heavier bodyweight, that are 30-45 second/mile faster after just 1 OS with EN.
Vince
I have a running background and have only done sprints and olys since 1995 as fun events. Never trained for them. And, I've been able to run marathons and ultramarathons comfortably for a number of years. Granted I ran them slow (3:40-3:45 marathons now). I've found that the speed work here in the OS has me running more on my midfoot and forefoot. And, it has taken a toll on my calves too. My calves are ALWAYS sore now. Well, that's from the bike too. I'm able to run faster much easier (on the track) with the training up to a certain distance, but I didn't feel as comfortable running the St Paddy's half mary last weekend (I'm not heel striking now). I even bought a new pair of Newton running shoes a week ago. Ran (slow) my first couple of miles in them on the track yesterday just to see how they feel and THEY FEEL GREAT.
Anyway, I digress. The point I started out to make is that I feel I've lost that comfortable running (or sloggin') style I had before the OS where I could run seemingly forever (at a 9:15 to 9:30 pace) as a heel striker. Now I'm faster, but I've lost that "sweet spot". Now, doing "social" runs with friends it no longer feels comfortable (talking specifically about the legs and calves). It's usually too slow for my new running sytle. I'm curious to see how this mountain marathon pans out Sunday, although I plan to take it VERY easy. The course is really muddy so I probably won't have much of a choice for pace anyway. It'll be all about trying to stay in a veritical position.
I want it all, as "Queen" would say! I want the speed when needed. AND the economy of a comfortable running pace for those long endurance runs.
Got my MOJO back today. Felt good during my TT this morning. I took off yesterday and did the TT today since I'm running a marathon Sunday. Resting tomorrow. I FINALLY broke the 200 barrier at 208w during the TT. Finally!
Funny thing, today while biking through the country I passed through a small barrio (with the blink of an eye I woud have missed it) named "El Mojo". I thought that was very cool. A "10" on the cool factor! Got a picture, but I don't know how to post it to the forum. I uploaded it to my profile. Magically gave me my mojo back? ;-)
http://tinyurl.com/yb34amo
Jay
Regarding your sore calves: if you haven't already, slam the cleats on your cycling shoes all the way back; this often helps alleviate lower leg issues among triathletes.
Jay - Yes, running and jogging are two different things. The only way I've discovered to go slower than I feel like I ought to is to shorten my stride, keeping a high cadence - that keeps my center of gravity where it should be.
Way to go getting over 200 watts! - I had the same feeling earlier this year when my FTP went up from 196 to 208 and now 218 in my first OS with EN.
Here's the method I use to upload pictures to a post, assuming I have a copy (like a jpg) on my computer:
Select attachments, below (click the arrow on the right). Choose Browse (you're looking thru your computer's files here). Select the picture you want. Choose Upload. Then choose Insert in Post. The picture remains available for future use here at EN if you want.
Finally, I looked at the TriStar 200 Andalucia web site. Interesting race - Bike (with drafting), swim, run! Chuckled over the English translations, e.g., choose this race if "You do sports for fun and not with morosity."
I didn't see the Upload arrow since I use the "Quick Reply" at the bottom. Using the "Add Reply" button I see it now. Thanks Al!
During the OS I went from 194 to 208. I'm happy with it. You had a big gain. Great job!
Yes, I have to find out if I will be able to ride my Cervelo P2 (aero bars). Over here normally in "draft legal" races you can't use aero bars. They say it's a safety hazzard riding in a group at high speed. I may have to ride my Trek. I hope not. And, yes, it not your normal triathlon. Longer bike, but a short swim and only 30k run along the beach.
Rode through a barrio named "El Mojo" this morning. Gave me a boost in my FTP to 208! Thanks Al!
From some google searching:
"Thus, despite having significantly lower VO2max values, the older athletes were able to perform as well as the younger runners because they were able to work closer to their VO2max for the duration of the race. " http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conte.../58/4/1281
I think that continued application of intensity is important over the lifespan of an athlete, and that it can "stave off" the affects of aging for some time. The hardest part for us to consider here is that our key event (an IM or HIM) is such an aerobic / endurance undertaking that we are truly not operating at full capacity (as oft studied in the literature out there), and that there are a myriad of ways to get faster on race day outside of how many weeks of IP training you do. Maybe you get better at cycling, or more aero (more speed for less work on the bike), or maybe you learn to fuel better. Perhaps you now pace the marathon better with more experience, etc.
But if we are to look exclusively at training and the intensity at which we train, I think that focused periods of IP can continue to add value to the boomers, although in smaller doses (not bundled with bike intensity) and perhaps (but this is conjecture) closer to the goal event. IOW, IP done in the OS (sometimes 20wks away from eventual race) won't have as much of a lasting effect.
All of that aside, you can continue to do TONS of Threshold work and still see plenty of progress (methinks).
Thoughts?
Thanks for the provocative post, Coach. Some thoughts:
On the study itself: The "younger runners" were about 25, so I would guess they had fewer than 5 years training for longer distances - fewer years of 2 hr+ long runs and 30-45 min tempo (long threshold intervals, or sustained runs at just slower than our TP) runs, or marathon/HM focused training. While the 56 y/os probably had 10+ years (or many more) doing a lot of threshold work. This would acount for their higher percentage of threshold to VO2. The take away here, I think, is not the comparison between age groups, but the knowledge that older persons can still train themselves to be elite athletes, using the same methods that work for younger people. (Major caveat: a strong and healthy cardio-vascular system, and healthy joints from the spine down are prerequisites)
On my own experience and what lessons it might hold. While I don't think I'm an elite runner, I think I do qualify as an elite older AG triathlete. It took me ten years of sustained training to reach that level, with no previous running experience (literally: zero miles ran in my life) prior to starting that training. That whole time, because I've been following one standard (i.e., not personalized) training plan or another, I have included all speeds of running in my program, generally following the principle of starting with faster paces and gradually going slower and longer. Say four weeks doing one IP speed session a week, then four weeks at TP, then 4 weeks at HM/MP (to use EN terms), then 2 months of more race specific work, usually for IM. While my stand alone 5k, 10K, and HM times stayed the same over those ten years (no small feat, I think), my IM marathon times have slowly but surely dropped. I'd bet that 60-70% of the drop is for the "non-run training" reasons Patrick notes in his post. But I'm sure that my ability to sustain a faster, steadier IM run now than 5 years ago (and have it feel EASIER as well) is due in part to keeping the speed elements of my physiology wokring to the best of their ability. I don't know why that is, and I really don't care. But I am afraid to drop the speed work entirely to see if I'm right.
The bottom line of my example is: working on and keeping running speed can be done as we age, and it probably helps improve racing speeds for us just as it does for those under 35.
@ Al O - I'm glad to say that I'm still running well into my 4th decade. And when I was young, I was impressed by the older guys who stuck with it. I remember watching the oldest age group run the 2000 Steeplechase (1000 short for age) at the 1989 TAC USA Masters National T&F and thinking I wanted to still be competing into my 80s. If my body holds up, I will be.
@ Linda - I concur that long course triathlon really takes it out of your speed. Since 2011 is my last year in the 50-54, and I probably won't be on the podium, I'm going to make is a sprint/olympic focus year to work on speed, then come back to IM at the bottom of the next bracket. At least the plan sounds good in theory!
Among the many intriguing aspects of Born to Run, which I read this weekend on a 20 hour drive from WA to CO, was the data presented on how slowly we slow down. One of the scientists quoted said top times by AG in the NY marathon dropped from age 19 to 27, then rose again (of course). But times did not rise to the level of the19 y/o until age 62 or so. This led McDougall into a sustained rap on the endurance and speed of older runners, using Caballo Blanco and the elder Tarahumara as examples. In their case, hill work substitutes for IP and TP intervals.
And, Mark, you're right. I'm certainly having more fun doing my long runs the EN way. I used to HATE a 2.5 hour slog at EP - my absolute least favorite workout. Now, the HMP and MP sections thrown in keep me motivated and interested, and I'm sure they make me stronger (read faster) for the IM marathon.
Anybody else have a harder time getting the weight off now than when we were 30? No matter how hard I train, my appetite seems to keep up with my effort. Maybe when I'm 8 weeks into the IM plan, that won't be a problem?