Just real quick comment in response to Bruce and Al's observations about speed work within the long runs, and specifically Al's comment, " the extra little secret I leaned is that doing that hard stuff then makes the final few miles on the long run feel exactly like it does in an IM....".
This is EXACTLY what was going through my mind during these long runs, especially of course the 2.5 hr. ones. As someone getting ready to do his first IM ( IMFL in 1 wk.), this is what I was hoping was the "method behind the madness" so to speak with the long runs with speed work interspersed in it- ie..create a similar fatigue level with less stress on the body.
So to have this "gut feeling" validated by some pretty experienced veterans is an additional confidence builder! Great post BTW.
@JK, thanks for adding your perspective. A couple notes:
To be clear, you're talking about a max of 1:45 long run prescribed by another coach, not EN, correct? For me, when I'm in IM training, a 1:20 run is no big deal at all. 1:30 is about where a "long run" starts. But there's definitely a difference between 1:30 and 1:45. That difference is about doubled from 1:45 to 2:00, doubles again from 2:00-2:15, etc. My point is that things get really shitty really quickly north of 1:30 and there is definitely "this fookin' sucks" value in progressing from 1:45 to 2:30. This from a guy with flat flat flat hobbit feet, a bad left ankle, and very tight hip flexor.s I'm NOT a happy guy to be around on those > 1:45 long runs.
As I'm sure you know now, you earn the right to not have to be in your feet for 6-7hrs by making yourself a faster runner in the 40 other weeks of the year you're NOT training for the IM marathon.
General note, for everyone: be careful when you bring in example of "this is what I / we / my friend did when training for a marathon." You are NOT training for a marathon. You are training to swim 2.4 miles, then ride 112 miles, then run 26.2 miles. That training load is very, very, very different from traditional marathon training and therefore there is very little we can learn from traditional marathon training.
Yes correct Coach R! On all 3 points.
My coach from IMFL was not EN.
Your comment about the non-linear/exponential suckage to time relationship makes me feel much better about the volume topic. I only have a non-EN IM training year to compare to, and I have nly been HIM training inside EN this year, so iI cannot make a comparisson apple to apple.
For the IM training plan in 2014 I will not lie and say that I am not nervous based only on my experience OUTSIDE of EN, but I am going to work the plan and give it my all. So far EN has proven to me that I have it within me to not have a total suckfest out there. if my 2014 goes anything like my 2013 has been going... I think that it will work out for me in a huge PR at Rev3 Full Rev.
Just a note of support of the EN system....and also admit that I run more at times....if I feel like it.........
I'm a long time runner, marathoner...and initially brougth alot of Marathon training/volume/running bias to the Haus....but I am not a convert to the running by time/effort approach....and this was primarily brought about by a run focus program I recently completed.........
I decided after IMTX this spring to put aside multipsport training and do a fall marathon with primarily a run focused approach for 3 months...for my training plan I chose the Hansons Marathon training plan....if you are not familiar with it...or are...they have become somewhat notable by the fact that their program does not include a heavy does of 18-22mile "long runs" ...though in fact this is a missunderstanding to some degree....
Their entire program is based on cumulative fatige effect and they use effort (pace) and time as their guideline/benchmarks....so they "only" proscribe 16 miles as their longest training run in their program but this is derived from a Time & Pace based approach....they want you to run at a very specific pace...and also understand that the optimum amount of time for a long run is between 2-3hrs...Under 2 isn't long enough and over 3 is too much (no benefit)...so 16 miles for those running between 8-11min. pace is right in that 2-3 hour sweet spot....capturing the full benefit of the training benefit....they key is to run it at the correct pace...not just go out and slog around....so if you are a 7mn/mi runner you may run more than 16 miles...even up to 20...staying within the time constraints.
Not the best expalanation....but if interested I encourage you to read the Hansons Method & their physiologically based approach to training effectiveness for a more complet understanding.
So...long story short...I'm now comfortable with setting my long run goal by Pace & Time...and letting distance fall were it may.
There is more than one way to skin a cat , one size does not fit all , this is personal and individual!
Having said that I believe the basic premise of 2.5hrs or less is proven/sound and should be applied to all regardless of run speed. After all the TSS to the individual should be the same if doing the same relative intensity.
My experience.... First 2 years w/EN guilty..... I ran at least 1 - 20 mile run (usually 3 hrs) in training "to make sure I could".... Didnt hurt me any....But did it help?
This year I completely embraced the theory and cut my long runs down to 2hrs MAX and boosted the quality of those runs... NOT 2.5 but 2.0..... For IMTX my longest single run was 2:11(yep lil over) 15.78 miles , my weekly mileage was usually in the low 30's on 5 runs per week , with 1 run focus week in Az of 48 (no biking that week) and a couple 38,39 weeks.... I ended up with the 2nd fastest IM run split in the M50-54AG..... So I like the theory of less is more on a long run but doing more mileage thru frequency.
For my KONA build I did split runs on my long run days and I built those up to 2hrs in AM and 1hr in the PM. The idea was to build durability to get thru KONA and to RACE IMFL.... Recovery from those split run days was pretty easy but the results remain to be seen...... I'll let ya know in a week!
I am sure that the speed work (if MP counts as speed) is quite beneficial, but I want to vouch for 2.5 hrs being enough even without it. I battled on and off injuries all season and never pushed the pace. All of my runs were purely by time, and I'd only track pace after the run, not try to control it during. I knew this wasn't ideal as EN manipulates training load by intensity, but for me the main priority was to get to the start line healthy. Anyways, just saying that 2.5 hrs is enough to prepare you (or at least me) even without adding stress with speed.
Another important admin note on keeping 2.5 hours as the max is simply the time needed to do this session on a Thursday morning for most folks. If it increases I would guess some folks might push it to the weekend which brings up a lot of other issues.
GREAT THREAD. You guys seriously rock for all this feedback. Have already drafted my thoughts on a solution to Rich, so we'll see where that goes. For now I leave you with these stats for some food for thought....
70.3, Beginner: Max run week = 270 minutes; Weekly average = 209 minutes 10:00/mile runner, that's 27 miles in the peak week, longest 12 miles, average of 21 miles a week. 12:00/mile runner, that's 22.5 miles peak week, longest 10 miles, average of 17.5 miles a week. 14:00/mile runner, that's 19 miles peak week, longest 8.5 miles, average of 15 miles a week.
Ironman, Beginner: Max run week = 290 minutes; Weekly average = 267 minutes 10:00/mile runner, that's 29 miles peak week, longest 15 miles, average of 26.7 miles a week. 12:00/mile runner, that's 24 miles peak week, longest 12.5 miles, average of 22.25 miles a week. 14:00/mile runner, that's 21 miles peak week, longest 10.7 miles, average of 19 miles a week.
Based on what I see, I think that at the 70.3 level, anyone at 14:00/mile or slower isn’t getting enough miles in. At the IM level, it’s at the 12:00/mile pace level.
IOW, fast people talking about slow people is nice, but doesn’t change the fact that the mileage seems to fall short of some mental "minimally acceptable standard" that I have in my coaching subconsciousness.
GREAT THREAD. You guys seriously rock for all this feedback. Have already drafted my thoughts on a solution to Rich, so we'll see where that goes. For now I leave you with these stats for some food for thought....
70.3, Beginner: Max run week = 270 minutes; Weekly average = 209 minutes
10:00/mile runner, that's 27 miles in the peak week, longest 12 miles, average of 21 miles a week.
12:00/mile runner, that's 22.5 miles peak week, longest 10 miles, average of 17.5 miles a week.
14:00/mile runner, that's 19 miles peak week, longest 8.5 miles, average of 15 miles a week.
Ironman, Beginner: Max run week = 290 minutes; Weekly average = 267 minutes
10:00/mile runner, that's 29 miles peak week, longest 15 miles, average of 26.7 miles a week.
12:00/mile runner, that's 24 miles peak week, longest 12.5 miles, average of 22.25 miles a week.
14:00/mile runner, that's 21 miles peak week, longest 10.7 miles, average of 19 miles a week.
Based on what I see, I think that at the 70.3 level, anyone at 14:00/mile or slower isn’t getting enough miles in. At the IM level, it’s at the 12:00/mile pace level.
IOW, fast people talking about slow people is nice, but doesn’t change the fact that the mileage seems to fall short of some mental "minimally acceptable standard" that I have in my coaching subconsciousness.
My observation, in my notes to P, is that I don't think we have many people in here who train at an average pace slower than 11-11:30'/mi.
So...if you're using our Beginner IM and 70.3 training plans, please give us idea of your average pace per mile, across all your runs, so we can do the math on your total weekly run mileage and have a more accurate conversation about possible solutions or tweaks to the plan. Thanks!
Here I am, another not-10+ min/mile runner commenting, so perhaps I shouldn't, but....
I think the HIM and IM are different beasts, in that many people really are kind of "racing" the HIM, even if they are in the 6-7 hour range (45 min swim, 3.5 hour bike, 2:15 run = 6.5 hours). I have no doubt that the beginner running 12 minute miles generally can complete the HIM distance on a long run of 10 miles, but I, too, wonder if they can "race" the run. I think the point has been made above about just being out on your feet longer. The person racing over some amount of time in the 6-6.5 hour range is starting to have a more IM-like experience where it's more about executing smart and getting the most out of what they have than it is about going as fast as they can on the run. Perhaps this is part of the equation.
With respect to the IM distance, again, I think we need to keep in mind the reality that the 12 min/mile runner is racing by being smart and not slowing down, not by running fast to a greater degree than the guy or gal going under 10 hours. I won't pontificate as to what that means for IM run training, but I do think it's the critical thing to keep in mind.
I'm a slow poke (vdot of 32) and here's my 2cents... I didn't ever "over-run". Probably more guilty of under-running". I'm a "main-set only" kinda girl. My weekly mileage building up to IMFL was 16-20 on the high side, limited both by my speed (or lackof) and my main set only philosphy.
So, in hindsight, I should have probably done the extra running time but I'll plead insanity and ignorance since I was training for my first IM. I know we train based on time, but I wonder if the weekly high of 20 was way too low? I followed the plan and my longest single run was 2:30 and I got in 13 miles. So, what would be super helpful is SOME guidance on mileage. Maybe a handy dandy spreadsheet that some Excel-wiz EN member wants to create? I def. struggle with that. As an obvious non-runner, I had no idea about weekly mileage and just learning the importance of all kinds of miles, not just fast ones. My running has been relatively stagnant over the past couple of years and I'm kind of starting to put 2 & 2 together.
Kim, my thoughts are that a weekly high of 20 miles is too low. The bigger concern however is that your long run accounted for almost 2/3 of your total weekly volume. That's a potential recipe for disaster from an injury prevention standpoint especially for a non-runner. Prevailing wisdom is that your long run should be about 30-40% of your weekly volume. That certainly varies from person to person but nobody should be doing a long run that accounts for the vast majority of their weekly volume.
My suggestion is that you learn to run during the OS. Have you looked into doing something like the Barry P. 3-2-1 plan? Basically it's six runs per week done in a 3-2-1 ratio. You would do three runs at 10%, two runs at 20%, and one run at 30% (for a total of 100%). Let's say you wanted to run 30 miles per week. You would do three 3 mile runs, two 6 mile runs, and one 9 mile run. For 40 miles per week it would be 3x4 miles, 2x8 miles, and 1x12 miles. I think something like this would be very beneficial for someone like yourself.
It's all about accumulated training stress. Running volume through more frequent running is very, very effective at doing this. There's a paradigm shift in triathlon run training philosophy to this way of thinking. EN run training incorporates a lot of that philosophy with 5x per week running. There's still some old school in the EN plans when it comes to the long run but it's an effective version of that in that it's midweek and limited to 2:30.
Bob- Great feedback! Any concern with adding too much mileage to the OS, which I'm starting this week? Also, my longest race this year will be a Half (Quassy HIM June 1) so I'm not sure what the mileage targets would be for OS and then when I jump into the HIM plan. Also have to consider I'll be treadmill-only soon enough and doing anything longer thatn 4-5mi at once isn't high on my list of things to do.
Comments
This is EXACTLY what was going through my mind during these long runs, especially of course the 2.5 hr. ones. As someone getting ready to do his first IM ( IMFL in 1 wk.), this is what I was hoping was the "method behind the madness" so to speak with the long runs with speed work interspersed in it- ie..create a similar fatigue level with less stress on the body.
So to have this "gut feeling" validated by some pretty experienced veterans is an additional confidence builder! Great post BTW.
Yes correct Coach R! On all 3 points.
My coach from IMFL was not EN.
Your comment about the non-linear/exponential suckage to time relationship makes me feel much better about the volume topic. I only have a non-EN IM training year to compare to, and I have nly been HIM training inside EN this year, so iI cannot make a comparisson apple to apple.
For the IM training plan in 2014 I will not lie and say that I am not nervous based only on my experience OUTSIDE of EN, but I am going to work the plan and give it my all. So far EN has proven to me that I have it within me to not have a total suckfest out there. if my 2014 goes anything like my 2013 has been going... I think that it will work out for me in a huge PR at Rev3 Full Rev.
Just a note of support of the EN system....and also admit that I run more at times....if I feel like it.........
I'm a long time runner, marathoner...and initially brougth alot of Marathon training/volume/running bias to the Haus....but I am not a convert to the running by time/effort approach....and this was primarily brought about by a run focus program I recently completed.........
I decided after IMTX this spring to put aside multipsport training and do a fall marathon with primarily a run focused approach for 3 months...for my training plan I chose the Hansons Marathon training plan....if you are not familiar with it...or are...they have become somewhat notable by the fact that their program does not include a heavy does of 18-22mile "long runs" ...though in fact this is a missunderstanding to some degree....
Their entire program is based on cumulative fatige effect and they use effort (pace) and time as their guideline/benchmarks....so they "only" proscribe 16 miles as their longest training run in their program but this is derived from a Time & Pace based approach....they want you to run at a very specific pace...and also understand that the optimum amount of time for a long run is between 2-3hrs...Under 2 isn't long enough and over 3 is too much (no benefit)...so 16 miles for those running between 8-11min. pace is right in that 2-3 hour sweet spot....capturing the full benefit of the training benefit....they key is to run it at the correct pace...not just go out and slog around....so if you are a 7mn/mi runner you may run more than 16 miles...even up to 20...staying within the time constraints.
Not the best expalanation....but if interested I encourage you to read the Hansons Method & their physiologically based approach to training effectiveness for a more complet understanding.
So...long story short...I'm now comfortable with setting my long run goal by Pace & Time...and letting distance fall were it may.
Having said that I believe the basic premise of 2.5hrs or less is proven/sound and should be applied to all regardless of run speed. After all the TSS to the individual should be the same if doing the same relative intensity.
My experience.... First 2 years w/EN guilty..... I ran at least 1 - 20 mile run (usually 3 hrs) in training "to make sure I could".... Didnt hurt me any....But did it help?
This year I completely embraced the theory and cut my long runs down to 2hrs MAX and boosted the quality of those runs... NOT 2.5 but 2.0..... For IMTX my longest single run was 2:11(yep lil over) 15.78 miles , my weekly mileage was usually in the low 30's on 5 runs per week , with 1 run focus week in Az of 48 (no biking that week) and a couple 38,39 weeks.... I ended up with the 2nd fastest IM run split in the M50-54AG..... So I like the theory of less is more on a long run but doing more mileage thru frequency.
For my KONA build I did split runs on my long run days and I built those up to 2hrs in AM and 1hr in the PM. The idea was to build durability to get thru KONA and to RACE IMFL.... Recovery from those split run days was pretty easy but the results remain to be seen...... I'll let ya know in a week!
70.3, Beginner: Max run week = 270 minutes; Weekly average = 209 minutes
10:00/mile runner, that's 27 miles in the peak week, longest 12 miles, average of 21 miles a week.
12:00/mile runner, that's 22.5 miles peak week, longest 10 miles, average of 17.5 miles a week.
14:00/mile runner, that's 19 miles peak week, longest 8.5 miles, average of 15 miles a week.
Ironman, Beginner: Max run week = 290 minutes; Weekly average = 267 minutes
10:00/mile runner, that's 29 miles peak week, longest 15 miles, average of 26.7 miles a week.
12:00/mile runner, that's 24 miles peak week, longest 12.5 miles, average of 22.25 miles a week.
14:00/mile runner, that's 21 miles peak week, longest 10.7 miles, average of 19 miles a week.
Based on what I see, I think that at the 70.3 level, anyone at 14:00/mile or slower isn’t getting enough miles in. At the IM level, it’s at the 12:00/mile pace level.
IOW, fast people talking about slow people is nice, but doesn’t change the fact that the mileage seems to fall short of some mental "minimally acceptable standard" that I have in my coaching subconsciousness.
My observation, in my notes to P, is that I don't think we have many people in here who train at an average pace slower than 11-11:30'/mi.
So...if you're using our Beginner IM and 70.3 training plans, please give us idea of your average pace per mile, across all your runs, so we can do the math on your total weekly run mileage and have a more accurate conversation about possible solutions or tweaks to the plan. Thanks!
I think the HIM and IM are different beasts, in that many people really are kind of "racing" the HIM, even if they are in the 6-7 hour range (45 min swim, 3.5 hour bike, 2:15 run = 6.5 hours). I have no doubt that the beginner running 12 minute miles generally can complete the HIM distance on a long run of 10 miles, but I, too, wonder if they can "race" the run. I think the point has been made above about just being out on your feet longer. The person racing over some amount of time in the 6-6.5 hour range is starting to have a more IM-like experience where it's more about executing smart and getting the most out of what they have than it is about going as fast as they can on the run. Perhaps this is part of the equation.
With respect to the IM distance, again, I think we need to keep in mind the reality that the 12 min/mile runner is racing by being smart and not slowing down, not by running fast to a greater degree than the guy or gal going under 10 hours. I won't pontificate as to what that means for IM run training, but I do think it's the critical thing to keep in mind.
So, in hindsight, I should have probably done the extra running time but I'll plead insanity and ignorance since I was training for my first IM. I know we train based on time, but I wonder if the weekly high of 20 was way too low? I followed the plan and my longest single run was 2:30 and I got in 13 miles. So, what would be super helpful is SOME guidance on mileage. Maybe a handy dandy spreadsheet that some Excel-wiz EN member wants to create? I def. struggle with that. As an obvious non-runner, I had no idea about weekly mileage and just learning the importance of all kinds of miles, not just fast ones. My running has been relatively stagnant over the past couple of years and I'm kind of starting to put 2 & 2 together.
Great thread!
My suggestion is that you learn to run during the OS. Have you looked into doing something like the Barry P. 3-2-1 plan? Basically it's six runs per week done in a 3-2-1 ratio. You would do three runs at 10%, two runs at 20%, and one run at 30% (for a total of 100%). Let's say you wanted to run 30 miles per week. You would do three 3 mile runs, two 6 mile runs, and one 9 mile run. For 40 miles per week it would be 3x4 miles, 2x8 miles, and 1x12 miles. I think something like this would be very beneficial for someone like yourself.
It's all about accumulated training stress. Running volume through more frequent running is very, very effective at doing this. There's a paradigm shift in triathlon run training philosophy to this way of thinking. EN run training incorporates a lot of that philosophy with 5x per week running. There's still some old school in the EN plans when it comes to the long run but it's an effective version of that in that it's midweek and limited to 2:30.
I hear you on the treadmill. Try running 5-6x per week for 4-5 miles. That would be 20-30 miles and more than what you have been doing already.