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Which VO2 Number to use for intervals

So if we use 110-120 of our FTP (95% of the 20min test NP) for VO2 sets....why do we do the 5min. Test to establish our MaxVO2?...or is that not really what we do the 5min. test for?...or if there is a difference....should we use the MaxVO2 number from the 5min. test or the caculated one in our training zones??



Comments

  • Use the number from your Vo2 max test if there is a significant difference. The 110-120% is a general range that most people will fall into, so that is prescribed in the training plans. In the past, EN used a different test [a 2 x 20 (2')] in order to determine FTP and this test did not have the vo2 component. Just think of it as close enough for gov't work.
  • The purpose of the 5 min test is to deplete your anaerobic energy system so that 95% of your 20 min test is an accurate estimate of your FTP. Absent this 5 min test, 95% of your 20 min test would be an overestimate of your FTP (which is supposed to be your best 60 mins power).

    My 5 min test is always lower than 120% of my FTP, so I use 120% of my FTP as my VO2 max power target.
  • ..Thanks Peter...get that. But what if your 5min. test is greater than 120% of your FTP...my FTP (95% of my 20min NP) is 205...my 5min. test was 265...120% of my FTP is 245.....so which do I use?

     

  • The idea is to use your FTP as the standard off which to base bike intervals. So when the plan says "110-120%" that means of FTP. That first hard five minutes of the test is not meant to set a standard for VO2 interval work. Over time, though, you can use increases in that number to demonstrate how you are improving your "VO2 max".

    A true test would be so all out that you would not want to any more biking that day. Cyclists look at measurements of the 30 sec power, 1 minute power, 5 min power etc to see (a) what kind of biker they are eg sprinter vs TT specialist, etc and (b) to train for specific aspects of a road race with surges, short steep climbs, etc.

    One other thing: look at your ratio of 5 min:FTP if it low (less than, say 1.14), you will benefit from more "VO2" work If it is high (say, over 1.22), then FTP work is what you need more of.

  • Thanks Al;  and based off my first workout It works...I pushed the first 1.5min to the higher number but realized the FTP based number was more realistic...

  • I had the same question as Joe. My calculated FTP was 282 and my 5' VO2 was 375, a 1.33 ratio. My 6 x 1.5' target was 338 as calculated in Trainer Road and quite honestly they didn't feel tough enough (I did the OS in 2011 using HR and the VO2 sets were tougher). Based on Al's comments, does that indicate that I need more FTP work? Should I just keep using the 338 number in my VO2 sets?
  • I'm not a cycling coach or a physiologist, but what I see going on sometimes is ... Big and/ or strong guys may have more of a tendency towards being able to hit massive anaerobic efforts. Maybe they have a background in weight lifting or football or wrestling or hockey. Fast twitch vs slowtwitch stuff. Its easy for them to build muscle and strength, so a little VO2 work will go a long way. And the longer the race they are training for, the more they need to develop those slower twitch bundles, where the FTP and even slower work in race prep comes in.

    As to the exact way to parcel out workout time in the OS for various physiologies and differing strengths, why not attend one of the upcoming OS webinars with the coaches, and raise the question there, or in the macro.micro threads, or in the general training forum?

  • Posted By Jason Clishe on 01 Nov 2013 09:48 PM


    I had the same question as Joe. My calculated FTP was 282 and my 5' VO2 was 375, a 1.33 ratio. My 6 x 1.5' target was 338 as calculated in Trainer Road and quite honestly they didn't feel tough enough (I did the OS in 2011 using HR and the VO2 sets were tougher). Based on Al's comments, does that indicate that I need more FTP work? Should I just keep using the 338 number in my VO2 sets?

    Good thought Al...I've been rereading as I can find information...racing with a pm...looking for advice and information;  Jason...for me the discrepency was narrower 265 on the test...245 calculated....so I rode them 255....(truth is I did the first at 265..which was all aout...but that didn't feel right for doing 6 with the appropriate effort in between in aero...it also made sense that like with FTP sets...your not actually riding at FTP your riding slighlty below FTP...again maybe I'm making a mess of the thinking...and I willl continue to probe and test.

     

  • A long time ago, a very smart member (Jim--Chicago area??) developed a power hack trial group that used this testing method along with looking at the ratios of FTP:VO2. As part of this hack I know that we did a combination of FTP & VO2 work with us using the 5 minute number as the target VO2 & 95% of average FTP as our FTP. I'm not sure if that info is still in a closet part of the forums, but I'll search for it. I'm pretty sure we made adjustments in the weekly riding workouts based on our ratio.
  • Al- I'm a former wrestler and weight lifter guy. And I have found that I am an example of exactly what you described. FWIW, I think if you have tested to a certain 5 min power number that you shouldn't used a 'lower" number to aim for during your VO2 sets... However if your number was lower than 120% then I would use the 120% number. These sets are short and somewhat mental but pay big dividends. However having a number substantially higher than 120% like Jason's 1.33 is more likely a result of a FTP test that wasn't ideal. Yes it means that the FTP work is very important, but that is what the OS is for and I'll bet your 2nd FTP test will show big improvements.
  • I've had a discrepancy in the past with my tested VO2 being higher than 120% of FTP and have trained with the higher number. (But on a bad day, hitting the 120% was OK image
  • If your 5 min test is greater than 1.2 x your FTP (0.95 x your 20 min test) and you are pretty sure that both tests are indicative of your actual abilities, I would just do FTP workouts in the OS.
    The reason is that for you guys, your VO2 max isn't limiting your FTP, so you may as well get another FTP workout each week.
    And I agree with John, I would use the higher of 120% of FTP or your VO2 max (assuming that you are going to do VO2 max sets).
  • Lots of great info in this thread.

    So today I did my 2x8' FTP sets and they felt just a tad on the easy side as well. I was an EN member in 2011, but I also self-trained with these FTP workouts in 2012 and 2013 so I'm very familiar with what they should feel like. However I've been entirely HR; using virtual power in Trainer Road is my first time with power so I have no legacy power data to refer to, just speed and HR. And comparing todays speed and HR data with legacy data in Garmin Connect confirms that I underperformed today.

    Perhaps I was too conservative during my 20' FTP test effort. Looking at my test results, there was absolutely no power drop off at the end, its a straight line. Which of course is a good thing, but also makes me wonder if I still had some gas in the tank. I think for next week I'll adjust my FTP number in Trainer Road up 100% of the FTP test instead of the 95%, and see how I feel next week. However even with that adjustment my VO2 target in Trainer Road will still be below my 5' VO2 test effort. FWIW I'm a big guy at 6'4" 210 lbs and have a weightlifting background so I also fall into the category that Al describes.

    Regarding the VO2 workouts, should I just mentally target my 5' VO2 test number instead of the calculated target that Trainer Road gives me, or should I use the 'workout intensity' field in the Trainer Road app to kick my VO2 workouts up to 110% or so?
  • Hey Jason- If it were me, I would leave TrainerRoad intensity settings on 100% but simply target 'your' number... Another thing you could also do is to make sure your 'off' time during the VO2 sets stays on the TrainerRoad line (which I think is like 60% of FTP). For me they seem much harder when I'm not taking the a complete rest with soft pedaling in between the 'on' sets.

    It sounds to me like you underperformed a bit on the test. If you have anything left in the tank during a test you should empty it. If you don't literally fal of your bike in a panting, sweating heap after your test, you left some on the table. If you didn't get a bit of tunnel vision while the clock started to move very slowly or even feel like it was going backwards for the last 30 seconds then you probably underperformed a bit. I like to think of the last 3-4 mins of that 20’ segment as a new VO2 test and literally she'll myself.

    Since you're new to power, it will take you several tests to master this, so don't worry. But instead of simply swagging a number, I'd just take your next FTP workout day and instead of doing the prescribed workout, simply do a thorough warmup and then another FTP test. Then you'll know for sure. Try to hit roughly the same VO2 number as your last test, but know what number you'll have to hit in the 20' segment such that 95% of it will give you the right FTP number to be in the context of that 120% rule of thumb. Then take the first 5 mins at your average power from the 20' segment of the last test and then add ~5W every 5 mins and then treat the last 3-4 mins as an all out effort (think vO2). Put in your mind that you WILL hit your new FTP target, then go get it. If you blow up spectacularly in this attempt, well at least you will have gotten a good workout and you will have learned something as well (while actually validating your original test).
  • Thanks for the feedback John. I think performing the test again on Tuesday's FTP workout is exactly what I'll do. Like you said, I'll figure out what my 95% 20' FTP NP should be in order for 120% of it to be my 5' VO2 NP and I'll try to hit that number during the FTP portion of the test on Tuesday. Either I'll gas out, which would confirm that I have a high VO2:FTP ratio, or, I'll hit that target which would mean that the rest of my OS FTP workouts will suck. image
  • OK wanted to provide an update on this. I re-tested today using the strategy that John outlined and left absolutely nothing on the table, was seeing stars at the end. I didn't hit the number I was shooting for that would have made my 5' VO2 number 120% of my FTP, but I did increase my FTP by 21 watts and brought my VO2 to FTP ratio down from 1.33 to 1.23, which of course is a lot better. And now my FTP workouts are going to suck even more.... image

    Thanks for all the advice, this has been a great thread!
  • That's great Jason! It sounds like you nailed the test and 1.23 ratio is close enough to 1.20 for government work... Awesome job! Enjoy those new numbers...

    p.s. Welcome to the 300 club!

  • Posted By John Withrow on 05 Nov 2013 03:30 PM



    That's great Jason! It sounds like you nailed the test and 1.23 ratio is close enough to 1.20 for government work... Awesome job! Enjoy those new numbers...



    p.s. Welcome to the 300 club!
    Ha, thanks! I barely squeaked over the line.

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