Crossfit and Long Course Triathlon
I am a prospective member who is deciding whether or not to join Endurance Nation. I currently train using Crossfit and Crossfit Endurance. This training plan has been useful for me because (1) my time is limited, (2) I need to maintain general fitness and strength for work (I am a law enforcement officer), and (3) I have found that I have fewer injuries and recover faster after races since I have been using this plan. I have completed several 70.3 events using this training plan and 1 full ironman. My 70.3 times have generally been hovering around 6 hours. My 140.6 race was slow (16 hours 25 minutes). I would like to improve my 70.3 and 140.6 times, but I am wary of adding a lot of volume back into my training plan since it tends to have significant negative impact on other areas of my fitness (strength, speed, flexibility, etc). My biggest weakness is probably the bike so improving bike durability is a priority for me. I talked to Coach Patrick about this and he suggested I post some info about my typical training weeks in the forums. Any thoughts/feedback would be appreciated.
Note: Since Crossfit is constantly varied, there is no real progression built into the plan and no two weeks are alike. These are examples of what my training weeks have been in the recent past. a "typical" week for me often includes 2 Run Workouts, 2 Bike Workouts, 2 Swim Workouts, and 4-5 Crossfit Workouts per week. I do interval training during the week - some long intervals and some short intervals. On the weekends I generally do a tempo or time trial effort for the bike and run. I typically take one full rest day per week. Some of my weeks have been a little light on endurance workouts since I don't have another triathlon planned until next spring.
Monday: CROSSFIT in the AM (3 Rounds for time of 30 Wallballs, 30 Sumo Deadlift High Pull, 30 Box Jumps, 30 Push Press, 30 Calorie Row, 30 Push Ups, 10 Backsquats)
RUN in the PM: 800 Meter Warm Up + Drills; 3 x 5-10-5 Shuttle Sprints, 8 x 100 Meters with 10 Seconds Rest, 1000 Meter Cool Down + Stretching.
Tuesday: CROSSFIT in the AM (5 x 100 Meter Band Resisted Sprints; 5x3 Weighted Pull Ups; 3 Rounds of Run 400 Meters, 21 KB Swings @55, 12 Pull Ups)
BIKE in the PM: 5:00 Warm Up; 7 x 4:00 Hard, 4:00 Easy; 5:00 Cool Down + Stretching.
Wednesday: FULL REST DAY.
Thursday: CROSSFIT in the AM (6 Rounds of Run 500 Meters, 8 Muscle Ups, 29 Double Unders with Jump Rope, 12 Thrusters)
Friday: CROSSFIT in the AM (2 Power Snatch Every Minute on the Minute for 10 Minutes, 8 Minutes to do as many rounds as possible of 8 Power Snatch and 8 Burpees)
SWIM in the PM: 800 Warm up (200 FS, 200 Drills, 200 Pull, 200 Kick), 5 x 200 with 4:00 Rest (3:51/3:47/3:41/3:36/3:34), 200 Cool Down + Stretching.
Saturday: RUN in the AM: 10 Mile Tempo in 1:28:04.
Sunday: BIKE in the AM: 20 Mile Tempo ride in 1:15:00
Monday: CROSSFIT in the AM: Clean + Jerk (5x5), 3 Rounds of Run 300 Meters, 20 Air Squats, 10 Clean & Jerk
RUN in the PM: 800 Warm Up + Drills; 5x600 with 3:00 Rest (2:18/2:18/2:16/2:14/2:11) 800 Cool Down + Stretching
Tuesday: CROSSFIT in the AM: 6x1 Muscle Up; 3 Rounds for Time of 20 Front Rack Walking Lunges, 20 Pull Ups
BIKE in the PM: 5:00 Warm Up; 6 x 2000 Meters with 3:00 Rest (3:54/3:47/3:46/3:53/3:58/3:52); 5:00 Cool Down + Stretching.
Wednesday: FULL REST DAY
Thursday: CROSSFIT in the AM: 2x1 Rope Ascent to 18'; 30 Minutes to get as many rounds as possible of Run 600 Meters, 2 Rope Ascents to 18', 12 Kettlebell Sumo Deadlift Highpull, 8 Burpee Box Overs.
SWIM in the PM: 800 Warm Up (200 FS, 200 Drills, 200 Pull, 200 Kick), 8 x 100 with 3:00 Rest (1:43/1:40/1:38/1:36/1:35/1:34/1:34/1:35), 400 Cool Down + Stretching.
Friday: CROSSFIT in the AM: Snatch Complex (7 x [1 Power Snatch + 1 Hang Snatch]), 5 Rounds for time of 10 Power Snatch, 10 Bar Facing Burpees, 30 Double Unders with a Jump Rope.
BIKE in the PM: 10:00 Warm Up, 8 x 20 Seconds Hard, 10 Seconds Easy, 1:00 Spin/Rest, 5:00 of 30 seconds Hard, 30 seconds Easy, 11:00 Cool Down + Stretching.
Saturday: CROSSFIT in the AM (7 x 1 Thruster; 12 Minutes to get as many rounds as possible of 12 Box Jumps, 6 Thrusters, 6 Bar Facing Burpees).
RUN in the PM: 10K Tempo Run in 49:52.
Sunday: SWIM in the AM (800 Warm Up, 8 x 25 Meters Hard with 10 Seconds Rest, 200 Cool Down + Stretching.
Monday: CROSSFIT in the AM (7 x 1 Clean + Jerk), 3 Rounds for Max Reps of 1 Minute of Wallballs, 1 Minute of Sumo Deadlift Highpulls, 1 Minute of Box Steps, 1 Minute of Push Press, 1 Minute of Calorie Row, 1 Minute of Rest)
RUN in the PM: 800 Warm Up + Drills; 12 x 200 meters on 90 seconds (40-42 seconds per interval), 800 Meters Cool Down + Stretching.
Tuesday: CROSSFIT in the AM (7x1 Deadlift; 25 Ring Dips, then 5 Rounds of 10 Deadlift, 10 Burpees, 10 Chest to Bar Pull Ups, then 25 Ring Dips)
BIKE in the PM: 6:00 Warm up; 24 x 800 Meters on 2:00 Minutes (All intervals 1:22 to 1:25), 6:00 Cool Down + Stretching.
Wednesday: FULL REST DAY
Thursday: CROSSFIT in the AM (7x1 Strength Complex [1 Power Snatch, 3 Overhead Squats]; For time - 30 Power Snatch, Run 800 Meters, 30 Clean & Jerks, Run 800 Meters.
Friday: CROSSFIT in the AM: Wearing a weight vest - Run 1 Mile, 100 Pull Ups, 200 Push Ups, 300 Air Squats, Run 1 Mile.
Saturday: RUN in the AM: 10 Mile Tempo Run in 1:25:07
Sunday: SWIM in the AM: 800 Warm Up (200 FS, 200 Drills, 200 Pull, 200 Kick), 300 Meters in 5:40, Rest 2:30, 200 Meters in 3:38, Rest 2:00, 150 Meters in 2:39, 1:30 Rest, 100 Meters in 1:43, 1:00 Rest, 50 Meters in 50 seconds, Rest 30 Seconds, 8 x 25 on 45 Seconds (roughly 25 seconds per interval), 200 Meter Cool Down + Stretching.
Comments
Hi Chad,
Welcome to the team! Let me first say that I completely understand your definition of fitness, which is probably some combination of strength, speed, agility and the ability to go in one direction for a long time. As a former Marine I once sorta lived in that world also.
But as a triathlon coach I'm afraid you're not going to like what I'm going to say, which is that if your goal is to become a faster triathlete, you'll need to do less CF and more/different swim, bike, run stuff.
Notes:
Again, I get it. I get that you have a particular definition of fitness that doesn't fit neatly into the endurance training and racing box. But as a guy who's done similar stuff and put more than a few IM athletes across IM finishlines, I can tell you that the week you described is about as far away as you can get from anything we would prescribe for Ironman triathletes.
Rich being the coach and all, its doubtful anyone here is going to say anything radically different from what he outlines. But maybe a few more thoughts to ponder ...
The bottom line really is quite simple: if you want to get faster at doing the swim/bike/run trifecta (back-to-back-to-back) for 5+ or 10+ hours, than the vast majority of your training efforts should be spent ... swimming, biking, and running.
There is nothing at all wrong with following the CrossFit plan and participating in triathlons of any and all distances. You will probably end up being more "fit" than I am. But I will probably beat you every time we race, and I'm almost 65. Switch to the EN plan (or, to be fair, any good triathlon specific training program), and you will be surprised at how fast you can actually go. It all depends on what your goals are.
Hi Chad.
Let me also welcome you to the Team. As one whose job requires "fitness", I understand where you are coming from. But, let me throw this at you ---
Try training the EN-way for one year.
Sure, your functional fitness may decrease slightly. But you might also be surprised at what endurance training does for you holistically. Body comp is just one aspect that I bet changes.
Prior to getting serious about long-course triathlon, I used to work out to "stay in shape." That was marginally effective, but not very specific. Giving myself the goal of wanting to be the best Ironman athlete I can be....now that is another thing entirely. It gives meaning to the workouts and provides *specific* motivation to get the work done. I can tell you this -- I am in much, much better shape now than I was before I joined EN. While I may not be able to do as many pull-ups or bench press as much weight as I once did, that is not really relevant to me anymore.
If after one year of focused efforts, you can decide if this is still for you. If not, you haven't really lost anything. Remember, the body is inherently lazy. By really mixing up your training, you will force it to adapt. If/when you resume CF, then it will have to adapt again. And that is all good.
Hope you stick around and see just how fast you can get.
I do like to do some upper body workouts to keep some sort of "form" or "tone", but it's not functional strength that'll help you s/b/r faster or stronger!
Personally, I don't think pro triathletes - male or female - have the greatest, "hottest" bodies, but they're born and made (we can argue that forever) for one purpose - triathlon machines!!
You just can't have ALL your cake and eat it too. There's got to be some trade off, unfortunately.
I'm just going to play devil's advocate on this one point. We sometimes use the term "functional strength" without really having a definition for it (or not all using the same definition). If by "functional strength" you mean strength, balance, and durability that is specific to swimming, biking, and running movements, then I think there is an argument that building that kind of strength helps you get stronger (and if you want to look to the pro's for example, I'd like you to find ones that don't spend some time in the gym doing planks, one legged squats, bridges, and swimming band work).
However, if by "functional strength" you mean total body strength built through Crossfit, then no, it's not necessarily going to get you there because you'll end up doing a lot of exercises that are great for building strength, but aren't functional strength for swimming, biking, or running.
So back to the original point. It's really about your own goals and definition of fitness. If you really want to get faster swim, bike, running, you are going to have to spend more time doing just that (and potentially also some strength/form work that is specific to swim, bike, run).
Someone might be the strongest, fastest, leanest mofo when they get to the start line, but if they don't know how to properly execute a race, they'll never race to their potential.
The race execution guidance you'll receive from EN is second to none, an order of magnitude better than anything you'll get from Crossfit Endurance.
Chad, fellow law enforcement guy here. I typed this up before when this conversation has come up. Nothing really different from the viewpoints already expressed but my $.02.
Strength training or CrossFit type stuff is wonderful for your overall fitness. It can address muscle imbalance issues. It can minimize some of the effects of aging, especially in older men. While somewhat debatable, it can aid in injury prevention. Weight lifting, Crossfit, P90X and all that can and will address all those things.
Here’s what strength training won’t do. It won’t make you swim, bike or run any faster or any better. First, there’s the whole aerobic vs. anaerobic conditioning difference. Secondly, there’s the principle of specificity.
A basic understanding of endurance sports performance shows that we are primarily limited by aerobic pathway efficiency, not strength or peak power. Strength training focuses on improving strength and short/intense power and by definition, primarily trains the anaerobic energy pathways.
Strength training can increase peak power and make you faster, but only significantly so in very short sprint-type activities that last for a moment or two. Training the anaerobic energy pathways provides very minimal performance benefits for triathlons, because our ability to perform in a triathlon is fueled almost exclusively by aerobic pathways.
Look at Usain Bolt and Yohan Blake or Carmelita Jeter or whatever 100/200 meter male or female sprinter. They’re built like gods. Now look at whichever Kenyans or Ethiopians that are winning whatever marathons. Look at those Velodrome track cyclists. Now look at Andy Schleck. Notice a difference in the way they look? Sprinting is anaerobic and all about maximum recruitment of muscle power. Running a marathon or riding a stage of the Tour de France or doing a triathlon of any distance is all about aerobic conditioning and very specific aerobic conditioning. Which leads to the principle of specificity…
The principle of specificity in very, very simple terms states that to get better at something, you need to do that something. You get better at swimming by swimming. You get better at cycling by cycling. You get better at running by running. When you lift weights, you get better at lifting weights. Think about this one very simple question. How can you make strength training more beneficial to an activity like running or cycling than just doing the activity itself? You can’t! If you want to get better at a specific skill (and S/B/R are very specific skills), you practice and train that specific skill.
There is no substitute for a discipline that is better than the discipline itself.
Which brings us to how Age Group triathletes train. We’re not professional and we do not have all day to train, rest and recover. We have jobs and families that monopolize most of our time. Training hours are precious and few. Getting in the proper amount of triathlon training to meet our own personal goals is always a struggle. Adding time for strength training to the mix is fine if you’re doing it as part of an overall fitness picture. It’s a waste of time if you think it will make you a better triathlete. The time spent on strength training would be exponentially more beneficial if it were spent on the actual triathlon disciplines. Even a coach like Joe Friel, who is pro-strength training, even admitted that his own studies didn’t back up his opinion on the matter. He continues to advocate it on the basis of overall fitness. And I’m cool with that.
I know someone will bring this up so let me address it now. We are age groupers. We are not professionals and genetic freaks. Spare me the articles about how Chrissie Wellington or Macca or Crowie or Andy Potts or even Ben Greenfield, etc. spoke highly of strength training and how it helped them improve. Those are people that have extracted almost every ounce of potential out of their swim, bike and run already so maybe, just maybe, some strength training might get them that extra 1% that wins a race. We're not talking about elite athletes who sit at the 99.9% percentile of the sport. We're talking about us… mere mortal age groupers. Do you think any of us age groupers have extracted every ounce of our potential out of our swimming, cycling or running? The answer is a resounding no. If the answer is no, then the only way to get better at swimming, biking and running is to actually swim, bike and run. It really is that simple.
I am well aware of the principles of specificity. I understand that getting better at Swim-Bike-Run requires spending time and effort learning how to do those disciplines better. I also understand the relationship between body weight, muscle mass, and the effort required to move that mass over distance. I have done a lot of homework on this so I understand all of these points.
Having said that... I can tell you that I have done 70.3 races using more traditional triathlon training plans that focus almost exclusively on swim-bike-run in the past. My times on those races were the same or slower than the way I have been training recently. So I don't think it is merely an issue of specificity in training. I also don't think that it is a weight/mass issue. Even though I have gotten stronger, my weight has not changed significantly since I started training this way. The third point is that I know plenty of athletes who train using Crossfit and Crossfit Endurance who are able to post good times (for them) on long course events (Sub 12 Hour 140.6 events, Sub 6 Hour 70.3 events).
Please also understand that I am willing to accept some trade offs. I am willing to accept that I may never be as fast as some people because I chose to invest time working on general fitness. I am not trying to qualify for Kona or "beat" other people. Truth be told, I doubt I would ever be better than a middle of the pack athlete regardless of what training plan I use. I would, however, like to improve my times. I am particularly interested in trying to get my 140.6 time more in line with how I should be performing based on my 70.3 performance.
Part of the reason I wanted to give Endurance Nation a look is because your training plans focus on some of the same principles as what I do now. For example, focusing on quality and intensity of training rather than volume. The other reason I wanted to give Endurance Nation a look is that I found the race execution principles very helpful on race day at Ironman Wisconsin. The advice on how to use my fitness was very helpful and I consider that a major reason why I was able to finish the race.
Because general fitness is important to me, I do not intend to drop it out of my training. I understand the costs and benefits associated with that decision. What I am interested in looking at ways I can use the time I do spend training for Triathlon to my best advantage. Is there any one who thinks it may be possible to utilize what Endurance Nation has to offer knowing that I want to continue doing Crossfit training?
Chad (and Team) thanks for the polite discussion on a topic that in "other" venues would have devolved very quickly.
You said that our messages of intensity over volume resonated with you...but that is SBR intensity over volume vs your CF flavor. I still think we're talking apples and oranges, in other words.
To answer your last question: it depends on what you're looking for.
With my coach-ey coach-ey hat on right now, I can tell you it's a not big deal for Patrick and I to work with our athletes, via the forums, to modify our plans for the odd race, injury, work / vacation friction, etc, because at the end of the day, RnPnTheENAthlete are all on the same page, for the most part, with regards to what is the best way to train for a long course triathlon.
But what you're talking about is very, very much counter to anything that we would ever prescribe for our athletes that I just don't see it working. We're not in a place, frankly, where we can go round and round modifying an EN training plan to accommodate your WOD, burpees and other activities.
That said, as you can see, we have a great community and there's a lot you can learn from them and us.
In the end, it's your choice and your money, just having an honest conversation with you about your options. One of which would be to purchase a training plan from us and modify that on your own. That would be a more affordable option for you.
Chad, I'm glad that you understand and accept the trade off with keeping strength training in your workout regimen and its impact on your S/B/R training. That's half the battle right there. Like I stated in my previous reply, I'm cool with strength training from a general fitness perspective. The bad rap that CF/CFE gets is due to the nonsense some CF/CFE coaches spew about how doing CF makes you a better triathlete. It's literally physiologically impossible.
The paragraph I quoted above has me a little concerned. Your times at past races may have been the same or slower using more traditional triathlon methods and more recent races have been faster simply because of specificity. You have more training time with the three triathlon disciplines. Yes, you sprinkled in Crossfit and strength training with the S/B/R but there was still a lot of S/B/R.
Your example that other CF/CFE folks put up good times is purely and simply due to their swim, bike and run training and not CF/CFE. Had they dropped the CF and used that time to swim, bike, or run more then you would see even faster times out of them. It really is that black and white. But as you stated, not everyone has the same goals.
All that stated, Rich and Patrick's job is to make you a better triathlete and they're very good at their job. They won't be giving you Crossfit advice but they'll be giving you some darn good triathlon training and racing advice. It will be up to you to make the two worlds collide that works best for your goals.
Is the schedule you posted more of your race build schedule or your OS schedule? I'm trying to compare this to what you'll find within EN and just need to know whether I'm comparing this to our race plan prep or OS. Thanks,
Thanks for being so straight up honest about why this may not be a good fit for me. I appreciate the opportunity to do the month long trial to get this kind of feedback. Even If I don't join the nation i have tremendous respect for your advice on training and racing so I hope I can find some good ideas to incorporate into my race prep for next year.
Bob: I am not asking for advice on being a better Crossfit athlete. I have plenty of other sources to go for that. It is specifically EN's knowledge about Tri Specific training and racing that I was interested in learning from.
I do agree that doing Crossfit does not inherently improve swimming, biking, and running. The addition of sport specific training is essential. Many of the gains from Crossfit training can, however, benefit triathletes in other ways (mental toughness, training of different energy systems, improving core strength, improving durability, focus on good form, etc). I also agree that the most efficient way to become a better biker, swimmer, or runner is to practice those sports. I do not, however, agree that everyone could be faster if they simply gave up all cross training. There are other potential benefits from cross training including faster recovery after training efforts/races and better durability/fewer injuries. I don't think one necessarily precludes the other. There is, however, a trade off because every athlete only has so much total energy they can expend during a week of training while still allowing for rest to recover/improve. The question is how much energy does an athlete have and how do they want to expend it. I am currently devoting 3-5 hours a week to Crossfit and I am able to do at least 8 hours of sport specific training each week (more during race specific preparation). My question is really this: What is the best way to use that 8+ hours each week?
Keith: Thanks for the very specific advice. You are correct that there is a lot of rest built into the interval sessions of Swim/Bike/Run training. The theory is that the intensity per interval can be higher with more rest and the goal is to find the fastest pace that can be maintained across intervals. There are some endurance workouts that utilize shorter rest and longer sets. As a result, relative intensity for that workout is lower.
The weeks I posted were technically from my "out season" schedule. On my standard schedule, I typically get 2 workouts per sport per week. The workouts are divided between short intervals, long intervals, tempo work. and time trial efforts. The tempo and time trial efforts tend to be longer efforts. Most "long efforts" are less than two hours. During my last training schedule, however, I had three "big day" race simulations to test nutrition and pacing.
What resonates with me after reading all the posts, is the comment you made about trying other traditional triathlon training and finishing your races slower or at the same time.
Maybe your performance outcomes are not related to your training, but rather about how you execute in your races, like Brent Eritou mentions above. Maybe what you need from our team is the tools on how to race your 70.3 and 140.6. Many an athlete has shown up to a race in amazing shape and has fooked it up by not executing well.
I have been with the team going on 4 years, and I have continually have gotten better and better, do in part to the training but also to the advice given on execution. I broke 6 hours this year in my 70.3 and did my first 140.6 in 13hr19min44seconds. Exactly where Coach Rich said I should be if I am a 6hour 70.3 athlete.
Just a though.
Given all that has been discussed here, I'm wondering if you are willing to try the EN OS and modify it within your schedule of crossfit? From looking at your schedule, it would involve some compromise on both sides of the equation. I think that you will find the bike workouts in the OS plan to be quite challenging (note that the first few weeks appear easy, but the intensity eventually catches up, so don't judge this too quickly). Given what you have, is there a crossfit workout that you can do on Wednesday and are you willing to tone down the crossfit to 3 days per week or at least take your legs out of the crossfit workout on the 4th day? This way, you can maximize the rest time like we are forced to do with the OS program by having Monday and Friday as off days. You will be building a lot of fatigue Tues through Thursday and then being tri specific on the Saturday and Sunday workouts.
Good luck with whatever decision you make. I can say that personally, by the middle of the OS my quads feel like I've been doing sets of squats and the fit of my pants kind of proves it. This mass then tailors off once I start adding volume in the 70.3 and IM plans.
Actually, it's about 2-2.5hrs on the weekend, as 90' Saturday ride and ~45-60' Sunday run.