Kind of pissed
So on Monday after IMFL I woke up pissed at how gut cramps had ruined not only my first IM, but one that I left T2 anywhere from 15-30 min. sooner than I thought I would (6:46). Going to keep what could be a rant into a short recap of relevant issues, then ask few questions.
- swim wasn't any harder effort than RR's in training. Maybe took LITTLE salt water in, but nothing significant.
- first bike/run RR was at .69 IF, felt fine. Second one was at .70 IF and felt better. IMFL was at .69 IF. Now I covered the 112 at IMFL 37 min. Quicker, but awesome conditions and unavoidable drafting I think account for that.
- took off out of T2 at prescribed LRP plus 30
- the ONLY thing different nutrition-wise was that DAMN sugary sweet bottled perform. Drank about 2 1/2 bottles of it in addition to powdered perform and EFS drink that carried with me
Sooooo, with that said:
1. My intuition ( don't want to say "gut" for obvious reasons) says the stupid bottled perform caused it. Did feel little funky in gut toward end of bike when I drank the most of it. BTW, I mix 2 scoops of powdered perform (140 cal.) per 24oz. bottle. Do you think it was the bottled perform?
2. Would you train with bottled perform, maybe diluted, or just plan on making 1-2 extra stops in addition to BSN, to mix up a bottle with some powder That can be carried? Prior to doing IMFL I may have hesitated at this idea d/t time it would take, but after a stupid SIX HOUR marathon, when I KNOW a 4:15-4:30 is totally possible, the 3-5 mins it will add is NO PROBLEM!
3 I wasn't even sore AT ALL by Tue. this week. Does walking so much ( probably 13 miles of marathon!) account for that and should down time be adjusted accordingly? This is actually what caused me to become PISSED.... My muscles/fitness was SOOOOO there, but just COULDN'T run.
4. Closely related to this is when should I start OS? Was thinking Jan. with unstructured till then. Going to do HIM in July and do a revenge IMFL next year. I don't know if it's anger, or walking a lot of marathon, and I know it's a long season, but I feel ready to start unstructured Wko's ASAP. When should I start unstructured stuff?
BTW, walked after seeing you at exit from park till about mile 12, HOPING gut would get back "online". When it only felt LITTLE better by mile 12 got really pissed and started steady jog till about 15.5 when felt nausea and stopped to puke up what felt like 1/2 gallon of fluid. I thought I was a goner then, but after walking about 100 yards surprisingly felt BEST in whole run and cranked out 10 min. miles till about 20.5 when cramps came back with vengeance and forced to walk/jog rest of way. Glad I saw it through, but pretty pissed that a possible low 11hr. day turned into a 12:45.
- swim wasn't any harder effort than RR's in training. Maybe took LITTLE salt water in, but nothing significant.
- first bike/run RR was at .69 IF, felt fine. Second one was at .70 IF and felt better. IMFL was at .69 IF. Now I covered the 112 at IMFL 37 min. Quicker, but awesome conditions and unavoidable drafting I think account for that.
- took off out of T2 at prescribed LRP plus 30
- the ONLY thing different nutrition-wise was that DAMN sugary sweet bottled perform. Drank about 2 1/2 bottles of it in addition to powdered perform and EFS drink that carried with me
Sooooo, with that said:
1. My intuition ( don't want to say "gut" for obvious reasons) says the stupid bottled perform caused it. Did feel little funky in gut toward end of bike when I drank the most of it. BTW, I mix 2 scoops of powdered perform (140 cal.) per 24oz. bottle. Do you think it was the bottled perform?
2. Would you train with bottled perform, maybe diluted, or just plan on making 1-2 extra stops in addition to BSN, to mix up a bottle with some powder That can be carried? Prior to doing IMFL I may have hesitated at this idea d/t time it would take, but after a stupid SIX HOUR marathon, when I KNOW a 4:15-4:30 is totally possible, the 3-5 mins it will add is NO PROBLEM!
3 I wasn't even sore AT ALL by Tue. this week. Does walking so much ( probably 13 miles of marathon!) account for that and should down time be adjusted accordingly? This is actually what caused me to become PISSED.... My muscles/fitness was SOOOOO there, but just COULDN'T run.
4. Closely related to this is when should I start OS? Was thinking Jan. with unstructured till then. Going to do HIM in July and do a revenge IMFL next year. I don't know if it's anger, or walking a lot of marathon, and I know it's a long season, but I feel ready to start unstructured Wko's ASAP. When should I start unstructured stuff?
BTW, walked after seeing you at exit from park till about mile 12, HOPING gut would get back "online". When it only felt LITTLE better by mile 12 got really pissed and started steady jog till about 15.5 when felt nausea and stopped to puke up what felt like 1/2 gallon of fluid. I thought I was a goner then, but after walking about 100 yards surprisingly felt BEST in whole run and cranked out 10 min. miles till about 20.5 when cramps came back with vengeance and forced to walk/jog rest of way. Glad I saw it through, but pretty pissed that a possible low 11hr. day turned into a 12:45.
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Comments
just jumping in here because i want to follow this thread. looks like you and i had the same issue...although you got it a bit worse. both of us had a no issue swim, solid and perhaps even a little conservative bike, then excruciating gut pain on the run. i just posted my race report last night. interesting thought about the Perform. i trained with the powdered, but usually did 3 scoops for 24 oz.
If I were you, I'd aim for the Jan OS.
On one hand I can see how you think 2.5 bottles RTD perform couldn't do that but my thoughts are: when EVERYTHING else is the same as in training, ie..food intake two days leading up to race, including early am feeding, preswim feeding, Fluid/gel/salt intake on bike, then I start to look at the ONE thing that was different.
This is what pisses me off. I use powdered perform so that I'm used to what's served on course and it's NOTHING like the RTD stuff (I know I'm not alone in that opinion as I've heard others voice this elsewhere).
Lastly, I NEVER want to go through that kind of experience again(wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy), and not willing to "chance"it, especially when a whole year is dedicated to the race, the body is fit, but can't run because I feel like I'm in labor!
1. It's interesting that I experienced the same issue of not being able to generate the goal 5 mile lap NP, and that the overall NP was below goal ( for me I was shooting for 182 and ended up with 179). This in spite of having the overall effort level feel higher than actual IF recorded. Also had the experience of having to burn some matches to pass packs....didn't do this excessively, but a few times.
2. After reading AL's comments on your RR, I'll add following important information: drank two 24oz. Bottles fluid per hour: one perform(140cal.), one EFS(100 cal.). Also took in 200 cal. EFS gel (liquid shot) and one S cap per hour. Only exception is first hour when riding JRA, also took in additional 140 cal. from bonk breaker bar (1/3 bar on 30 and 60 min. marks), and when drank one bottle RTD perform in first half, and about 1 1/2 bottles RTD perform toward end of ride
Also peed 5 times: at 1:45 mark (which worried me that it took so long), then again 30 min. Later (which I thought was strange), the about every 45 min. And went again in T2. Also, even with cramping on run, did pee a couple more times on run.
Also, felt like was "forcing"down some of the fluids (especially the RTD perform) toward end of ride, which caused some mild gut discomfort.
Please anyone reading this far.....although I have some definite ideas on the matter, I really want any/all thoughts, and let me have it if you see something that I did that was just plain stupid.
Hi Steve,
I'm new to EN, and I don't know if this has any bearing at all or if you've already seen this, and I did just randomly stumble on your thread, so just ignore it if it's not relevant, but your description reminded me immediately of something I had already read. Andrew Starykowicz writes of a similar theory about his performance and a problem with the RTD Perform that he had during Kona on his blog here: http://www.andrewstarykowicz.com/20...-ance.html.
I am not speaking from any kind of experience though, so probably best to listen to the experts here. Susan
Susan,
Starky's excuse was just that... an excuse. He rode his bike into a proverbial brick wall. He's a real big guy by pro triathlete standards and he doesn't do all that well in the heat. He absolutely hammered the bike at Kona and paid for it. He's also not a great runner by pro triathlete standards either. He has A level cycling ability and B level running ability at best.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4815821
Read that thread, especially Jordan Rapp's (Rappstar) comments.
Steve (and Greg),
I can't say this with 100% certainty but it's extremely doubtful the Perform was the issue, especially only 2.5 bottles of it spread out over the course of a 112 mile ride. It's just not enough of it to cause a problem.
Powdered Perform and RTD Perform are chemically and nutritionally 99% identical. The very slight differences aren't material enough to even matter. Taste is a little different and the temperature of the drink can vary from ice cold to lukewarm from aid station to aid station. That can matter.
Normally, I'd tell a person with gut problems that they rode too hard on the bike and it caught up to them on the run. 95% of the time I'd be right in that hypothesis. Sounds like you had your bike ride dialed in so I won't go there. I'd also rule out the Perform. So the next line of troubleshooting is salt and overall hydration. Sounds like you had the sodium thing worked out okay in theory. Kind of high, IMO, but not absurdly so but...
Where you also drinking water? You didn't report that you did or did not. If you did not I really think it boils down to one thing reading your comments here: you did not drink enough water. The Perform and EFS (if I'm to assume you mixed it properly) are already in the proper osmolality/CHO %. Not really necessary to dilute them with water. It's the 200 cal/hour of EFS liquid shot and high sodium intake that could be the culprit. The EFS liquid shot needs to be diluted with the proper amount of water, which is probably around 20 ounces without doing the math. You were cramming in 440-500 cal/hour with only about 1/2 of it diluted properly. All the sodium needs to be diluted to work right as well. Excess sodium intake without adequate water dilution will also cause GI issues.
It's my opinion based on what you've posted so far that you took in too many calories and electrolytes and not enough water. You created a chemical gut bomb in your stomach. There simply wasn't enough fluid to allow for proper absorption.
I would have to agree with alot of what Bob posted; working through thinking exactly as he had...and the thing that I got to was ...alot of sodium & electrolyte fluids......
- Ingesting dilute or not highly concentrated food/fluid. When you eat/drink something highly concentrated, the stomach pulls fluid from your body’s blood volume to dilute what is in stomach. Therefore, drink water after taking a gel or salt tablets---not sports drink!
See Dr.Kitimas discussion of monitoring hydration in the wiki here..http://members.endurancenation.us/R...ion+Status
Perform dry v Perform liquid shouldn't be an issue generally....unless you were used to a more dilute solution...would be interesting to compare the nutritional make up how you typically prepare v the amount in bottle...
- COULD be the "non-diluted" EFS liquid shot and/or S caps. because didn't drink any water really (took a little swig 2-3 times after using majority of bottle to cool myself off). BUT, I never took in water in RR's and didn't have any gut issues, so that seems in my mind not real likely. Plus, my understanding is that all the IM nutrition recommendations on the board are to NOT take in any plain water.
While not ruling that out, I've thought about the following and would appreciate thoughts/comments:
1. I used same calorie sources/amount as in both RR's, which worked well and were derived (amount that is) via the formula on the board( lbs X .625 X 4). But both RR's were in significantly cooler weather (upper 40's to low 60's). Could it be that the warmer weather on race day, especially toward end of ride, affected gut absorption rate and I just couldn't process same amount of calories?
2. Is it possible to drink TOO much fluid? I peed 5 times on bike ( starting at 1:45 mark) and had to go bad in T2.
FWIW, feeling WAY less "pissed", and the big picture is I finished my first IM, am healthy, and looking forward to next year. Just don't want to go through too many trial and errors, which is why the team/ board rocks.
#1 - According to the can, you are supposed to mix 3 scoops per 24 oz, not 2. That's a critical oversight in prepping for race day: http://www.allstarhealth.com/de_p/15301/POWERBAR_Ironman_Perform_Lemon-Lime.htm?utm_source=google&utm_medium=GPS&utm_campaign=15301&gclid=CJ7lgdup3roCFU-CQgodX0QAMg
#2 - I was not aware than EFS Shot is supposed to be diluted in water when consumed, if I missed that in our earlier discussions, I totally own that (but I have never used it or read label). Per the site, it's clear that EFS is meant to replace all other forms of sodium, not to be integrated with others.
#3 - FWIW, You didn't mention how much perform per hour you were taking in...2 bottles would have 950mg of sodium, well within the 1,000mg guidelines, no need to really supplement.
#4 - What works in training isn't guaranteed to work on race day. You and I could have six donuts and still ride...but on race day things get really really sensitive. Case in point, sticking a Bonk Breaker bar (food from hell) in your gut. Easy in training, not in a race. Many of these bars have 12g of fat...literally cement to your stomach. Then add the fact they have minimal sodium and it's a non starter. We in no way endorse using these bars...we prefer PowerBars (1/3 the fat but 3x the sodium) or PowerGels.
I think that the early calories matter the most on the bike...and you put in some bad calories there...nutrition by end of the bike is pretty bad in general. Changing conditions do matter but first 2-3 hours of IMFL are not hot such as to affect nutrition. The fact you peed that much (ideal target is 2x) means some form of imbalance of fluids in your stomach...unable to use it, you are losing it.
Don't be pissed...get smarter (you are).
The Jan OS is good..I would pick up the run durability plan #1 (4 wks) starting next week...remember it's not the ironman you are recovering from so much as all the training to get ready....2 weeks should be perfect!
Like I stated earlier, I can't with 100% certainty say the undiluted liquid shot and too much sodium where the culprits but I can pretty much guarantee that was the issue. You took in 240 cal/hour that was concentrated correctly with the Perform and EFS. Any additional calories without the proper dilution would start to throw off the osmolality/CHO% in your gut. You added at least 200 cals extra per hour with the EFS liquid shot. So the caloric density increased by 83% without any dilution to offset it. Remember that EFS liquid shot is basically a gel. Would you take a gel without chasing it with water? No, that's a recipe for disaster. That's basically what you did. You pretty much took in the equivalent of two gels per hour without the water to dilute it. There was only one way that was going to turn out. The excess sodium intake only amplified the caloric and carb situation.
As Patrick stated, what works in practice doesn't always work on game day. The RR's are great but ultimately you're only running for an hour or so and you're not attempting to run 26.2 miles. You're not going to uncover every problem or sensitivity in the RR. I know that from experience. I trained like heck for my first 70.3 four years ago and I thought I had everything dialed in, especially my nutrition. Everything went well in my race rehearsals. Come race day I made the same exact mistake as you... I supplemented the Gatorade Endurance (stuff WTC used before Perform came out) with EFS Liquid Shot and didn't dilute it with any water. Seemed to work during training (for whatever reason) and I seemed fine on the bike. I knew I had a problem within the first couple of miles of the run and it was a disaster that ultimately led to an overnight stay at the hospital.
I mentioned all this on my race report on ST back then and Brian Shea (BrianPBN on ST) felt so bad for me that he gave me a free nutritional consult. I learned a lot from that, especially about making sure there's enough liquid dilution.
Read up on Osmolality in sports drinks here:
http://www.hammernutrition.com/hnt/297/
http://www.infinitnutrition.us/info...ity101.asp
Notice the magic number is an osmolality around 300. That's what your body's natural # is so you want your nutrition to be as close to that number as possible. If you did the math you'd probably find the osmolality you were putting in your gut was probably over 500.
First half:
- start with two 24 oz. bottles on bike with 3 scoops perform each. One bottle to get me thru to first aid station, 2nd one a reserve. Drink one bottle in first 30 min.
- at first aid station, grab 20oz. Bottle perform. From that point on, drink 2 bottles perform per hr. , grabbing one at every aid station
- eat 1/3 powerbar at 30, 1:30, and 2:30 marks
* this will put me at 430 cal./hr. (350 perform, 80 powerbar) and 1017 mg. Sodium/hr. (950 perform, 67 powerbar). All the RIGHT osmolarity ( THANKS Bob!!). Actually first hr. Will be slightly more calories and sodium, as 24 oz. bottle of powdered perform will give 210 calories and 570 mg sodium, but I think this is a good thing.
Second half:
- continue 2 bottles 20oz. Perform/hr. Routine, grabbing one at each aid station.
- pick up 24 oz. bottle at BSN that has 8% solution of EFS liquid shot (100 calories per 12oz. Which is recommended concentration per 1st endurance site in warm/hot weather, which should be the case for 2nd half of bike).
- take 8oz. Feeding of above mixture at 3:30, 4:30, and if needed( thinking positively) 5:30 mark
* this puts me at 417cal./hr.(350 perform, 67 EFS liquid shot)' And 1017 mg. sodium(950 perform,67 EFS liquid shot). Slightly less cal./hr. Second half of bike, which I like. Also the switch to EFS liquid shot has two benefits I like....going from solid (powerbar) to liquid, and will get additional 8oz. Of fluid in per hour.
Lastly, I like the idea of carrying LESS weight on bike (not carrying water bottles), and don't have to hassle with taking S caps. Thoughts/comments?
Also, this nutrition starts tomorrow. As in 24oz on the bike in the basement, sip sip sip...1/2 bar, etc...all the experience adds up!
They stopped selling the RTD Perform a couple of years ago. You won't find it anywhere.
I definitely have a threshold Perform limit. I drank 7 bottles at IMFL during the first three hours and I was done with it. Had a PB&J at about hour three and a couple of gels and water the rest of the way.
Starting run durability #1 tomorrow per your advice. Didn't read all info. about run durability in depth, but enough to glean that it's for someone with more IM experience than me (IMFL was first). Kind of want to confirm that's what you recommend until JOS. I assume you're picking this more as a structured "filler" until JOS, rather than intending on having me go through all 3 durability blocks as a more experienced IM athlete would do. Is this correct? BTW, Just submitted season plan to Rich, waiting to get that back (JOS, HIM in July, and then IMFL again).
Part of it could have been my anxiety and stress leading up to the event. I don't think I was "regular" the two days beforehand. A friend of mine, who does ultras, said he takes laxatives the day before to clean out his system... So nothing interferes with the race. I don't know if anyone else has done that or if there are any thoughts on that. I did take an aspirin that morning. I had some pain in my one shoulder. But I only took 2, before the race. But, I later read somewhere that aspirin can do it to you too. I don't know if you took any aspirin or not.
The only other thing I did differently was probably hydrate more. In my previous races I haven't had to pee during the whole bike leg. I couldn't see how this was a good thing. So... I did drink more perform on the bike too... I'm not sure if this helps.
Can you break it down for us??
I did not stick to this on race day. I did have.. I think... 2 GU, a couple Bonk Breakers and a few bottles of Perform. I like to travel light on the bike and carry as little as possible. After reviewing the posts above... Do you think the Bonk Breakers could have effected my GI track?
The GU gels have very little sodium, which inhibits their digestion. Bonk breaker bars also have low sodium for the total number of calories, plus they have like 8-9 grams of fat per serving...also very high. Both are products which work in training (you and I could have bacon pancakes and still train!) but on race day they don't usually fly. That webinar in the wiki has lots of good info for you.
As for keeping it 100% natural, that could be a challenge...but maybe someone else in the forums can help!?