How has your running progressed over the years?
I feel a bit stuck in terms of running at the moment. I started back in 2008 and my first 3 marathons were all around 5 hrs. Then I dropped weight and my next 3 were around 4:30. Then I figured out how to keep from cramping and I got a 3:52. So I have taken an hour off. But the big dream races (Boston and Kona) will require another major leap in terms of time. Even 2 years from now when I am aged up it would take a 3:25 to hit the bq standard.
I am wondering if it is possible. Has anyone out there gone from back of the pack to front of the pack in terms of running?
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I didn't start running until I was in my 40's as a way to fend off the bloat of a desk job. I had always been active and was only 20 lb over my current weight when I started so not quite the same starting place as you.
Over the past 10 years I have gone from BoMOP to FoMOP, to near the BoFOP more recently. Partly due to running faster but also running smarter (not slowing down) and by age related attrition as I age-group up. Overall I have only trimmed 38 minutes from my first marathon in'04 (4:06) to my recent PR (3:28). So in reality, you have improved more than I have already.
Over in the NOS run thread instead of doing a 5K test 2 weeks after setting a PR, I posted a chart of all my race and test VDots. See here: http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/13624/afpg/2/Default.aspx
I built it to see the trends and compare VDots from full, half and 5K tests. One of the big things I noticed is the general flattening since beginning SBR training. Which goes to what Paul posted - you want to be a much faster runner? You have to spend a lot of time running which is hard to do if your a triathlete.
Frequency is probably the best tool for a triathlete to incrementally get faster. It helps by improving run durability while your body builds capacity (mitochondria & capillaries) yet allows room for bike and swim training.
The other point I would make is to intensity. Easy runs should be easy and hard runs should be hard. Just like EN espouses in it's workouts. In run training, the place you want to avoid is Zone 3. Too much fatigue for the marginal training effect.
Steve your vdot graph is interesting. I may put one together for myself. One thing I see in oyurs though is that the 26.2 vdot has many more data points than the 5k vdot. I wonder how those dotted trend lines would change if you only used the peiod where you have data for both. Or put another way, I wonder what your 5k time would have been back when you were a 4hr marathoner.
Regardless, I am going to keep after it. I am 42. If I have to keep working and make small improevments for the next 15 years to BQ or KQ then so be it. The reward will only be that much more meaningful.
thx!
Basically I went from being a non-runner to a marathon junkie and skipped all the normal build-up races..... not too swift....
This is a great topic. In my experience running since late 2009 I've found that overall experience over the years yields improvement. My VDOT trajectory is in the picture below, and I've essentially had two phases:
1. "The steep part of the curve" – this was from 2009 when I started until the end of the 2010 season. In this phase, which I think all new runners experience, I made extremely rapid improvements driven by a combination of fitness gains and weight loss:
- In 2009 I had my first race as an 8k where I ran 11-minute miles
- By the end of that year I ran a Turkey Trot 8k at 7:58 pace
- In the spring of 2010 where the below chart begins my 8k was down to 7:16 pace, which is just under 45 VDOT
- Sep through Nov 2010 I ran 5 races in the ballpark of 48 VDOT, with the highest being a 49.0 VDOT 15k and a 48.8 VDOT half-marathon (this is when I became aware that I have better VDOTs at longer distances)
2. The "flat part of the curve", where improvements are more incremental. This started in 2011 which was my first year in EN. I was able to consolidate my VDOT in the 48-49 range, pretty consistent across all distances. Even my post-season races were at that same VDOT level and quite consistent. But for me in 2012 and 2013 this incremental improvement phase was characterized by breakthroughs to the "next level" each springtime, based on the high-intensity OS bike/run training. The breakthroughs were incremental compared to the rapid improvement I saw initially, but were not immaterial: in 2012 it was getting to a >50 VDOT level with consistency (i.e. even the post-season throwaway race was a 50), and in 2013 it was kicking that up to a ~53 VDOT level.
I'll be interested to see where I am now. My 54.3 VDOT marathon is somewhat of an outlier because I only did run training – all the others are based on triathlon training. Personally I was surprised that run-only training didn't really get me a true "breakthrough". I'll find out a little more this weekend when I run a half marathon C-race after letting my fitness decline for 6 weeks subsequent to the marathon…will I have "consolidated" to my new ~53ish VDOT as I did in the prior 2 years??
Fundamentally I believe each of our curves flattens at a different point, driven by genetic factors. Jimmy, after running since 2009 and training pretty seriously for at least a few years since you've been in EN, you're almost certainly on the flat part of the curve. No more low-hanging fruit unfortunately. That isn't to say you can't make continued gains…just that it requires increasing input for decreasing improvements. The ROI eventually becomes no good for most people. The question is if there are some high-ROI things that haven't been inserted into your training that could give you some bumps and get you closer to your potential.
The tricky thing is that you can't know that for sure what those high-ROI things are – I think those things are different for different people once you're on the flat part of the curve (i.e. individuals' responses to training stimuli differ). But you can try some different things and see if they work. For example:
- A run-only block for 12-18 weeks (it didn't make a huge impact for me but maybe it would work for you)
- Ramp up your running volume substantially (could be in conjunction with a run-only focus or just add volume to your existing regimen)
- Lose more weight (no idea if you have opportunity there, but if your BMI is greater than around 22-23 you probably could try to take off some pounds)
- If you don't already, commit to improved adherence to your training plan
thank you in advance matt!
My guess is that we could stop right after your bmi comment. I am 24.4.
Racing 10lbs lighter should be the next big bump.
Even if it isnt fat. I got here from a training backgound that included olympic lifting. Being able to clean and jerk my bodyweight will not help me cover 140.6 any faster.
Your comments on your vdot being higher for longer races was interesting as well as I am the opposite. I had a best 13.1 vdot of 43.5 and a best 5k of 42.5 but a best 26.2 of 39.31 (all last winter in good cold temps).
If your VDOT at the same fitness level is higher in a 13.1 compared with 5k I'd but you into the box of one of those odd people like me who is better at longer distances. Unless you trained specifically for the 26.2 I'm not sure if you can compare it. If you go and run a 26.2 on a tri training program then I think you'll sub-optimize. Most people around EN will do a lot better in a 5k than a half-marathon.
Another south Texan here....Jimmy and I are both down here. I know that temperature has a huge effect for me. Although my Vdot has moved from ~38/39 a year ago (when I really started running (always in tri training, mostly in EN) to 42-43 currently, just in the past couple of weeks my paces are noticeably "easier" than even a month ago. I am sure it is due to the cooler weather. Despite training hard in the spring and summer/early fall for two HIM, my vdot/paces didn't really move much (a little, but not much). Suddenly, I can "fly" as it's colder. I'm just hoping that I can truly build some speed this winter, so that when I then slow back down again in the heat, I won't be quite as slow. Running at night or early AM in south Texas in the summer only means that it is 80-90degrees, rather than 95-100!