FTP/VDot Goal Question

Craig Marchand

Hi I'm looking for some guidance on my racing goals for this season.

Historyically;

I have one race.  IMMT 12:40 (1:07 swim, 6:59 Bike, 4:18 run).  I left some on the table on the bike for fear of blowing my run along with two flat tires in the first hour.  On the run I had an issue too that added about 10mins. Overall under better circumstances I could have finished (very slightly) under 12 hours I think.

My goal this year for IMMT 2014 is 1:05 swim, 6:00 bike, 3:30 run.  I'd like to come in under 11hrs.  I'm not sure if I'm being unrealistic.  Looking for some feedback.

I calculated my VDOt goal to be 44.55 for a 3:30 marathon.  Last year my VDot was 42 for IMMT.  My FTP was 251 if I tested correctly.  I had some issues with testing in the wrong environment.

Overall last year I had some bad advise.  I came to EN late in the season, so this is my first OS and I want to do it right this year.  Your input would be appreciated!  What should I be aiming for this year?

Thanks!

Coach Rich

Posted By Craig Marchand on 20 Nov 2013 07:13 AM

Hi I'm looking for some guidance on my racing goals for this season.

Historyically;

I have one race.  IMMT 12:40 (1:07 swim, 6:59 Bike, 4:18 run).  I left some on the table on the bike for fear of blowing my run along with two flat tires in the first hour.  On the run I had an issue too that added about 10mins. Overall under better circumstances I could have finished (very slightly) under 12 hours I think.

My goal this year for IMMT 2014 is 1:05 swim, 6:00 bike, 3:30 run.  I'd like to come in under 11hrs.  I'm not sure if I'm being unrealistic.  Looking for some feedback.

I calculated my VDOt goal to be 44.55 for a 3:30 marathon.  Last year my VDot was 42 for IMMT.  My FTP was 251 if I tested correctly.  I had some issues with testing in the wrong environment.

Overall last year I had some bad advise.  I came to EN late in the season, so this is my first OS and I want to do it right this year.  Your input would be appreciated!  What should I be aiming for this year?

Thanks!

Have you submitted your numbers to us via the Heads/Tails thread here?

http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/13709/Default.aspx

The short answer is to do the work, focus on consistency and let the gains come. Our historical FTP gain in the OS is about 10%. 

Moving this thread to the Power and Pace forum where you'll get more feedback. 

Keith Wick

I love that you have a goal, but let it be just that--a target. Your FTP and vdot will be a combination of your work, consistency and how life factors in. While you have this goal, remember that you have to have the numbers, but also start to look at how you execute those numbers. Read up on the race pace/power guidance, get your nutrition dialed in and be flexible enough to adjust to conditions on race day---that will let you achieve that goal, provided you have worked to get the numbers to form your foundation. Keep this forum someplace where you can find it and then let's start to have this conversation in May/June when you begin race prep.

John Withrow

^^ what he said...

Follow the plan. Do the work. Crush the OS but follow the plan. Test, do work. Retest, repeat. In the late spring/early summer, this will all start to come together and will be solidified in your race rehearsals.

Anything is possible, so aim high and go get it. But if you want real feedback on your 'hypotheticals':

Swim - who knows... 2 mins is the difference in swimming straighter or not.
Bike - with no flats and great execution, you're half way there. Your FTP will be higher. Can you get your weight down? 6hrs flat 'should' definitely be doable.
Run - that is a lofty goal. Certainly an achievable one and a goal I have been chasing for yrs. That vDot looks like it produces a standalone marathon around that time. An IM marathon is a different beast. If you're within 20-30 mins of your standalone marathon time in an IM after a 6 hr bike, you likely had great execution.

But ignore everything I just said and get to work. (And Welcome to da Haus)

Al Truscott

Some practical advice:

• This time of year, its great to have aspirations/dreams. Helps you stretch yourself. But don't think about setting "goal times" for an Ironman until after the second Race Rehearsal, 2-3 weeks before the race. Then, you'll have the necessary info from training to set realistic targets.
• An IM marathon of 3:30 in cool weather requires a VDOT of 55 or 56 or a 5K of about 18:30-40. OTOH, a IM marathon of 4:10 should be very doable with a VDOT of 48/9 (and well-nigh impossible for 42). So you may be further to your dream than you thought. If you're "young" (under 39 or so). and new-ish to running, you can make fairly big leaps in running speed in a year or two applying the intensity training EN encourages. Over 50 or a long time runner, a lot harder
• A very good performance for you in the OS would be to raise your FTP by 10-15%, and run a 5K in about 20 minutes. Start with those thoughts in mind, as the stepping stones this winter to your IM next summer.

 

Racing Yoda

Al, would you please reiterate your 'feel' for the IM marathon as you run please?

Al Truscott

Posted By Steve Hall on 20 Nov 2013 06:09 PM


Al, would you please reiterate your 'feel' for the IM marathon as you run please?

Uh, I've been trawling thru the EN forums and wiki today, pulling out threads and articles about how to succeed at the IM marathon, in hopes of firing up a new thread on that topic. Seems like AFTER the IM season is a good time to do that, so as not to get in anyone's head in the build-up to a race. I guess I'll have to tell the IM Coz, and anyone racing Down Under in Dec to avert their eyes.

Topics I'm interested in include how to incorporate into routine workouts the mental training needed to "not slow down" on race day; learning how to correlate RPE, HR,and pace; using HR and RPE to adjust pace for environmental factors such as hills and heat; and how to put it all together on race day.

But specific to this query, I'll just copy from my Missoula Marathon race report; while this was a stand alone marathon, it's exactly the same for an IM race - you're just going slower (emphasis added, and edited slightly):

"...I started out... thinking that if I were properly trained, and if I were properly pacing myself, the race should *feel* (RPE) the same from start to finish. My great insight (one I’m sure every successful racer gets) is that the longer the race goes on, the harder it feels. Evading or delaying that feeling means one is not racing to one’s full potential. There are two other key steps needed to get to that potential: feeding the engine properly, and pacing steadily. So drinking more than you need at the start, and feeling is if you are running “stupid slow” at the start are key. Then, it’s like Chinese water torture . With every mile, every step, it feels a little harder. From miles 1-8, it feels like your long run pace. From miles 9-16, it’s like one’s “marathon pace”. From 17-22, like half marathon pace, 22-24 like a 10K would feel, and then the last two ... it’s like a 5k, or even harder by mile 26. Even though you're going at the exact same speed."

Racing Yoda

Thank you sir!

Craig Marchand

Amazing feedback everyone!  gives me the freedom to just work hard without "thinking" too much, which I usually do!  I'm very encouraged.

@Rich, no I haven't added my numbers to the list because I was injured during the first week of OS during testing.  I did my test despite not feeling great.  I didn't realize how injured I was until later.  My FTP was something like 212, so either I had a huge drop since IMMT, or it was because I was testing indoors vs my FTP of 251 (outdoors up hill), or being injured I couldn't put in the full effort, or a combination

turns out I had a pinched femoral nerve, so I couldn't do the run test at all.  since then I'm feeling good but out of country without access to my power meter and been doing my OS work on a spin bike using HR and RPE.  I won't be able to retest for at least another week, or I'll wait until the first test week in the OS.

As for the run test, I'm embarrassed to say that I have a real hard time putting in such a big effort without the motivation of a race.  I tried to do it last week and pushed too hard and bailed early.  Maybe I'm still not 100%. Not sure.

afrost

Just a couple of thoughts on the VDOT and IM marathon relationship. I am not convinced you need such super high VDOT to run a good Ironman marathon. I have never had a VDOT higher than 43 or 44 and I have run 4 IM marathons in the 4:02 to 4:08 range (in the heat and on a hilly course). And I'm not young! These were all done in my late 40s, early 50s. But maybe I am the exception and not the norm. I'd be interested to hear if other people can get good results without these blazing fast 5K times. :-)

---Ann.

rlh2000

Ann, that is awesome. Just wondering what your run training is like- do you stick to the plan with the targets based on your vdot? Do you feel you just aren't good at testing in shorter distances? I've seen a mismatch in my 5k time and my open marathon time, and I attribute it to me being able to better handle the pain of the marathon than that very acute 5k pain, so I have never run a 5k pushing myself as hard as I should. Just curious about your experiences!

I will also add to this thread that while FTP is a great metric, racing smart can also make a huge difference. By smart I mean the EN way of easy up the hills, hard down, staying in aero (and having a good aero setup), etc. I did multiple rides of the IMWI course in training with my overall Pnorm never fluctuating more than 5 watts between rides, but with time differences of 15-20 minutes just by riding smart to get the most out of every watt.

afrost

Rachel, I pretty much do stick to the plan and run the targets based on my VDOT paces. I will say though that I do a fair bit of running in zone 2 rather than zone 1. I just feel more comfortable there - kind of like my natural hull speed. I think I test fine at 5K - I am just not very fast!! :-) I certainly don't like the 5K kind of pain and do prefer the marathon type of hurt. That is especially true of half IM vs. IM racing. I am not particularly good at the Half IM distance and am much better at the full distance. My full IM times are literally double the Half IM and add 15 minutes!

But I really do need to work on my bike! That's my project for this season. As a small person, my FTP is pathetic. And if watts/kg is the goal, I only have watts to work with. In reference to the Watts/Kg being a cruel witch thread - she's especially cruel when you only weigh 115 lbs and dropping kgs is not an option!

---Ann.