5K TT and TP - I don't understand

jaleslie

Just finished 6wk BF plan, which has one 60min run/week on sundays, with 2 x 1mi and 2 x 1/2mi Z4 miles.  No 5K TT at the beginning of this plan.  So, I just continued using my prior paces coming off fall HIM training.  As the weather cooled off, I was finding the TP miles too easy, and so I bumped them up gradually, until they became hard.  For the past month, I have been using 7:20 as my pace for these intervals.  In fact, the past 3 weeks, I have routinely done 3 x 1 mi at 7:15-20, with minimal difficulty (last 1/10 mile becomes hard to hold the pace, but able to get it done).  Basically was using the paces for vdot of 45....with no problems with the paces.

As I start the GF plan this week, today was a 5K TT test.  I ran three days in a row last week around Christmas, one hour each...7, 8 and 7 miles.  1st and 3rd of these included 3 x 1 mi at ~7:20.  Haven't run in 5 days, partially in prep for today's test and b/c I tested swim and FTP earlier in the week.  Yesterday was 1000yd swim test, no run or bike.  So, I was prepared for tonight's test, fueled well, mentally ready, not sore, not tired, etc.  Temp was ~40's, dry...perfect for a fast run right?  I have bombed some 5K tests before, so decided to start at 7:15-20 for first mile.  Felt good, but couldn't really increase it any.  First mile was 7:19.  Second was 7:27.  Third 7:23.  Total 5K time of 22:50.  HR avg was 157. This was a good effort for me, and I could not have run it any faster, I don't think.  Verge of nausea, side stitch last mile....I feel it was well paced and "couldn't have done it much better".   That HR for me reflects a hard effort.  Much more than that and I'll peter out, vomit, crumple on side of the road, etc.

So, I'm pretty happy with that as I cool down.  Come home and go to the calculator (and attack point eventually) and find that this time gives me a vdot of 42?  Now my TP is supposed to be 7:52, according to the EN calculator and attack point?  WHAT?  WHY?  I'm not gonna get any faster if I am now supposed to run my TP miles slower than I have been for the past month!  I just ran 3 straight miles at pace of 7:21.  Why would my TP now be 7:52?  

So, I had basically "hacked" myself to a vdot of 45 for the past month or so....and was running those TP miles (3 x 1 at 7:15-20) without problems.  But, in order for me to move to a vdot of 46 with today's test, I would have to run three straight miles at <7:00/mile?  </p>

This makes no sense to me....or have I lost my mind?  Please help me understand.  I thought I understood....apparently not?  HELP!!!

 

jaleslie

Note to self....consult the wiki before posting questions next time.  Although, I still don't understand how I'm going to run faster if I don't sometimes run faster.  

From the wiki....

Threshold Pace

On a subjective level, Threshold Pace is "comfortably-hard" running; it is the maximal effort you can sustain for an hour. This translates to slower than 10K race pace and for most people it is about 20-25 sec per mile slower than current 5K race pace. Running at Threshold Pace helps to improve your lactate threshold. Note: It is important to stay as close as possible to the prescribed speed; slower/faster velocities do not do as good a job as the proper speed. Here is a case where going too fast ? which many runners automatically try to do ? is simply not as good as running at the right pace.

So, based on that explanation, I'm supposed to now run my fastest during strides and then during TP miles/intervals....but somehow in 2 months when I retest I'll be able to run faster than 7:21/mi on a 5K TT?  I just don't see how that's gonna happen.  Can someone explain this concept?  Seems like I need to run at 5K (or even faster) pace for 1/2 to 1mi intervals in order to move my 5K pace forward.  

 

Al Truscott

Posted By Jeff Leslie on 03 Jan 2014 12:49 AM

So, based on that explanation, I'm supposed to now run my fastest during strides and then during TP miles/intervals....but somehow in 2 months when I retest I'll be able to run faster than 7:21/mi on a 5K TT?  I just don't see how that's gonna happen.  Can someone explain this concept?  Seems like I need to run at 5K (or even faster) pace for 1/2 to 1mi intervals in order to move my 5K pace forward.  

 

Al Truscott

Oops, hit the wrong button ... Here's how I explain it, having seen it in action multiple times:

1. Your legs are going to get stronger from all the TP work. And you won't become injured from working too many minutes at too hard an effort.

2. Your form at speed, and your cadence will probably improve from the strides.

3. Your brain (the nerves, not your mind) will have become more used to working hard, and will be willing to put the two together when asked on race day.

And don't forget, in the latter part of the OS, we'll be doing some shorter, faster intervals, like 400s, if your mind (not your brain) simply must be convinced that only training at speed will result in racing at speed.

Al Truscott

One other thing ... EN plans, including GF and OS, are NOT designed to result in your fastest possible 5K time; they are designed to prepare us for the rigors and requirements of training, then racing long course triathlon. A 5K specific program would probably have some element of speed work @ 5K and faster paces.

We use the 5K as a way to determine our training paces for the purpose of becoming better HIM and IM athletes.

zwuba

I'm also a little bit confused about your situation running all that TP-miles at the same pace you actually ran your 5k .... strange thing ... but you said you was absolutely exhausted in the end so there was nothing left so the test was ok.

I really don't have anything to add to that additional to what Al said!



BUT I have to mention that I did 14 weeks of JOS + GetFaster (both Adv) last year and you know there are A LOT of TP miles you have to do. I left JOS just before VO2 started so there was TP work only in 14 weeks and now guess how much faster I got comparing my 5k tests



9 -- NINE -- lousy seconds!!!

I was also very disappointed at first because I felt I was a better and faster runner and also could easily overachieve every single interval but after a half a day of self-reflection I came clearly to the point that all the work we are doing is not "designed" to build a super-fast 5k rocket ... it's much more about building the basement for the extended long - but still quite fast - runs that will come up later in your HIM or IM plan!

If the VO2 stuff will do any difference to my 5k-TT?? I don't know by this day but I'll come back as soon as I have the final score

 

EDIT: Damn Al you just answered during I was typing 

cgres123

In the long term it's all about progressive overload. The stresses that are being put on you body with the training plan you chose, will cause the body in time to adapt to these stresses. That is how you will become fitter and faster.

All the above will direct training stress to both your slow/fast twitch muscles allowing them to Progressively adapt , VO2 max, economy and body composition. This is one of the principals of any training plan whether in house here or lifting weights in a gym.

Keith Wick

The other thing to keep in mind when you are comparing 2 or 3 x 1 mile @ TP to a 5k.....there is typically a 3-4' rest interval built into those runs that allows your heart rate to lower and you to recover. One thing I'd also wonder is whether looking at your watch and trying to pace it is actually holding you back. Sometimes we do better by not looking at the clock and just focusing on how much hurt can I endure for a perceived length of time....then give a glance and try to estimate your hurt factor vs another perceived length of time....until finally you only have 1-3' left to gut it out.

kimmydct

Thanks for posting, and pulling up the Wiki info as I have had the same question too!

Anu Rao

My guess is since you hacked the VDOT instead of basing on a TT, its may not have been accurate and you have possibly been running the 3 x 1 @ 5K pace instead of T. Also your comment about the last 1/10 being hard to hold seems to point to a too fast pace. T pace should be comfortably hard and generally should be sustainable over 3 intervals. Not easy mind you, but doable. A better indicator would've been if you able to run say 20-25 minute continuous at that T pace and hold it. Regardless, don't worry too much about it. Its just a number, and as you put in the work you will keep getting better.

If you were to run a 5K race vs individual TT you will likely be a bit faster.

As for how the tempo paced workouts help? It is supposed to improve your overall aerobic capacity and you will start to see improvements, ability to hold a faster T pace for the same period of time. This in turn should also improve your ability to run the faster paces of a 5K. Will it help you run your best ever 5K, no, but as noted above that is not the goal. You want to improve your endurance and ability to run faster over longer distances.

The big advantage of tempo runs is it is a relatively lower stress way to add intensity into your training, as compared to 5K and lower paced running

Peter Noyes

I was curious about all of this as well. I recently raced both a 5k and a 10k and the numbers fall in perfect line with the pace chart. My threshold pace is just a bit slower than my 10k pace which makes total sense because I should be able to hold that threshold pace for an hour. I would just stick with the slower threshold pace and I think you will see results. I joined EN back in august and my vdot is already up 3 points, it works!

Shaughn Simmons

The one thing I might add to the great guidance below for you to consider is that you have to be careful about looking at one interval or one workout and rationalizing performance improvements.  That is rational and tempting.  It is more about the cumulative load, as well as how and when that load is placed on your body in conjunction with the biking and/or swimming as well.  When you're running TP intervals many times a week on legs already carrying a work load from the bike, you're running them tired in some sense, working hard, requiring more focus to get it done.  All that work turns into fast fitness gains down the road once the load is lifted, rest is employed and a new test is performed.  This has been my experience over the course of several OS periods............trust the plan and the coaches........work works!

jaleslie

Thanks for all the input.  I will stand down and be a good boy and run at the tempos prescribed and trust the system.  

Bruce Thompson

@ Jeff... I'm a little late to this thread, but I'm glad to see that you will follow the plan.  My experience in my first OS was just what you described in your opening post of this thread.  Like you, I was like "WTF? All this work that I'm able to do in my workouts and my test tells me to go slower."  The key insight  that has been clearly detailed by others below is that we are training to be faster long course triathletes, not faster 5k track runners.  Once you grasp this, it all makes sense.  I think you are there. Follow the plan as best you can given life (family, work, illness) and you will be well prepared for a solid HIM or IM race.