JW's "Keeping me honest" Micro Thread.
Coach P--
Putting this here so it's public and you can berate me for others benefit if necessary (assuming there are lurkers). I have been doing "JW Modified" OS plan since early Dec. I'm doing your Run durability hack (plus extra running) and adding stuff to the bike workouts. This is my 4th OS so I think I earned the right to hack the plans a bit, etc. based on my past ability to absorb the work or "not" absorb the work in the past OS's. Then over the Holidays I did the Run Challenge in addition to several hard bike workouts. I have always found that my body can absorb more work than I have time to put work into it. And I really enjoy that "comfortably numb" feeling in my muscles all day that tells me I am getting stronger.
That started to change near the end of the run challenge with my shin (shin splint area) aching a bit even though I have never had shin splints in my life. I went to the chiropractor for my low back/SI joint area (I have had serious problems in this area in the past) as it seems like some of my shin pain was just referred pain from the SI joint area shooting it down my leg. I got stim and adjustment. I have KT tape on my low back/shin area. I have been icing, stretching, rolling, using my ultrasound machine on my leg area, etc. I had a couple of "failed" bike workouts this week. And I had a couple of "easy" runs where the legs felt better at the end than at the beginning, but not great.
So basically that "comfortably numb" feeling in my muscles has been replaced by an "aching in my bones" feeling. My muscles feel great, and my mind is ready to go, go, go... but. I AM STANDING DOWN NOW.
It is so much harder (mentally) for me to stand down that in is to push through. But it is only January so I'd rather take a little time now than a lot of time later... I'm pretty sure I missed the early signs of overtraining (I've gone HARD for the last ~4 months with ZERO issues). So I'm going to take several days COMPLETELY off and re-evaluate where I stand. My problem is that I don't actually know how to "stand down"... I got ~8.5 hrs of sleep last night after spending 40 mins in my Normatec boots.
Should I do NOTHING in the next 3 days (or longer if necessary... a week? more?). Or should I do things like "easy spinning on my bike? What about the low impact elliptical at the gym? how about a swimming week? Is there even a protocol for good muscles and mind but achy bones... Or am I literally supposed to do ZERO body movement and just sleep and eat healthy and use all of my normal recovery gadgets (most of them are for muscle soreness). I can get my head around whatever you tell me to do, but would really appreciate your guidance.
And feel free to yell at me for not being conservative enough over the last 4 months, but I'm pretty sure I will ignore whatever you say regarding that.
Comments
Let's put it this way, in no order:
* Fitness is about being able to do work. When you can no longer achieve your standards of work because of excessive training, it's time to stand down.
* All of ^this^ fitness is about being your best on race day. Not about having this tuesday's run be faster than last Tuesday's run which was faster than the previous Tuesday's run, ad nauseam. Right now your long-term goals are being jeopardized by your incredible ability to suffer and your focus on the short term.
* More isn't more when it comes to working out. More is what you get when you do the workout right and recover well from it. Increased amounts of the right type of work will help; increased amounts of ALL TYPES of work will not.
Sounds like you have caught the early signs of some pretty chronic exercise fatigue. Short term, you should rest 3 solid days -- walking only, yes to all gadgets -- before returning to a schedule. Long-term, you need to stick to a basic plan than includes room for recovery -- I suggest you go back to one full day off, if not two. If you need me to edit that plan layout for you let me know.
I am comfortable with more rest for you because I know you have some longer events / training scheduled, where you will really boost your fitness (assuming you make it there!) and because a stronger Withrow is a faster, more indestructible one.
Let me know what you are thinking...
I took 3 full days off and slept a lot and used all of my recovery gadgets. This helped me to confirm that it does not appear to me muscular fatigue (but I'm sure the couple days off still didn't hurt)... My shin feels a TON better, but I can still feel a slight faint twinge, so I think I might give it a couple more days off of running. My low back/SI joint area is very tight and out of alignment. The latter likely leading to the former, so seeing a chiro again today...
This morning I did an "easy" spin as I wanted to ease myself back into things. Felt pretty good with that. But mentally counting this as a fourth day off since it really created very little TSS, if anything it was good for me mentally to be at least moving a bit.
I'm gonna keep trying to hit most of the run frequency you prescribed, but will go to 2 full rest days (from running) per week and see how that plays out. I had been taking ~1 per week and running instead of my Friday rest day. But I will probably only run a couple easy times in total this week even if my leg feels okay.
I've gotten 'lazy' with my core work, so I plan to pick that up again (maybe focus on that on my new "rest from running" day. This slacking off 'might' be a contributor to my low back issues.
I am still considering the Tour of Sufferlandria. I know that might sound crazy considering this is a thread on possible overtraining... But I keep debating it in my head because it doesn't 'seem' like this is a muscular fatigue thing, but I'm sure that is in someway related. I figured the TOS might allow me to endure more of the suffering I 'need' without all of the impact stress to my leg that I've given it from my big running block (big for me anyways). Is this me just being psychotic or do you think it is a decent thought? I do have the Big Bike Camp from Feb 26th to Mar 2nd. (So is another big bike block from Jan 26 to Feb 3rd a good idea or bad idea???)
Gonna get healthy first, then "slowly" dig a new fitness/fatigue hole second instead.
The net is is doesn't "seem" like much to you mentally but your body is saying STOP STOP STOP. Fatigue isn't muscular in the endurance space; don't let your wrestling lizard brain trick you. Fatigue in the Ironman space is much, much more evil…maybe this will help, assuming you actually spend time reading or watching a movie outside of training:
Your work out is your PRECIOUS and no one should be able to touch it except you. PRECIOUS wants to know what the best workout is you can do to recover from working out too much…because PRECIOUS knows best.
This is where you need to rise up and kill that shit. Show it you are the master by ignoring the urge to workout, keeping your eye on the larger (race) prize vs the smaller (daily TSS goal?).
The good news is you are listening…let it recover and you will emerge stronger, and able to do more in your next block….assuming you survive the down time.
There's nothing wrong with taking a light week, then jumping back into the OS and continuing on with your plans for domination. Better to be on this side of the decision making process than the one where we are talking stress fracture, etc.
When I get some time, I'm gonna put a longer thread in a different forum. I went to a Chiro/A.R.T. Clinic yesterday and saw two really smart docs (one of which did IMNYC with Team ReserveAid so she knows I'm crazy). I have been slacking on my "core" workouts since I have been doing so much more run frequency. My IT bands are really tight, but more importantly, my hamstrings and hip flexors are extremely tight. They said my run form looks good, but my walking form was BAD. My bad hip position eventually caused my low back/hips/SI joint area to revolt/spasm. This likely lead to my shin splint issue.
Plan: No running for at least another week, then start back slowly. A.R.T. and other treatments 2-3 days a week. New stretching program. And MOST importantly, getting back onto my intense core routine (starting with my new found days off from running). Duh, "your core is even more important with bigger running miles, stupid!"
I'm actually glad this happened now. Better to have a gentle slap in the face in January then a Mike Tyson punch in the nose in July!
I took 3 days off of ALL workouts. I took 9 consecutive days off of running. On the days I was supposed to run, I did core work instead (mostly Glutes, hammies, and core stabilization stuff). Over this time I continued to work hard on my bike, (I even tested with a new higher FTP). I also focused very heavily on proper nutrition, and getting a ton of sleep (sleep challenge has helped me track that).
I have been to the chiropractor/PT/ART people 2x a week since my Jan 13 post, this has really helped.
After my 9 days off of running I started back with a 3.1 mile run at 9:16 pace (VERY EASY). Then took a day off and did 5.5 miles at 8:23 pace (also easy). I took the next 2 days off of running, then did another 5.5 miles at 8:07 pace which also felt easy. After another day off I did 1:10:00 on my treadmill which I estimate was ~9 miles around 8:00 pace also very easy. This last treadmill run I was finally completely pain free. I did a bike the next day and took today completely off.
Tomorrow will be my first "real" run as I plan to push a little harder, targeting ~8 miles outside in ~10 degree weather in NYC.
All-in-all, I feel as though my bike is stronger and I'm ready to start running regularly with a big focus on core stuff, recovery, nutrition, and sleep.
There have been several occasions when I have Coach P pop into my head saying "precious" in a creepy voice. This happened on yesterday when I was considering running today. Instead I took the day completely off and got almost 9 hours sleep last night. I'm ready to dig a new hole though so I'll keep you posted when I start to get stupid again...
Thanks for the update. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction. It's helpful to read through your lessons learned b/c I think I carry a similar predisposition to keep my body red-lined. I struggle with rest days...not that I don't enjoy them....I just struggle to be disciplined to do them and to really rest on those days.
Shoot an update after your run tomorrow and let us know how you feel.
- David
@David -- thanks for keeping tabs, and for being honest too!
I just finished up ManCamp in AZ! It was awesome and I felt stronger each day, then my quads were sore when I climbed Mt. Lemmon on Monday morning with Tim Cronk.
Total stats for the 5 days were: 285 miles of biking (19,777' of climbing) and 13.5 miles of trail running (1,700' of gain) for a total of 19.5 hrs of total training. I got a nice bump in CTL and my TSB reached a minimum of -40.6... I was certainly tired (mostly from lack of sleep the last couple of days) and my quads have been comfortably numb. But in general I feel AWESOME!!!
I took Tuesday and Wednesday completely off. I'll either do something super easy tomorrow (Thursday) or maybe sleep in one more time and just run easy on Friday. I was thinking of jumping into my 28 days of consecutive run block (as per Run Durability Plan) but wanted to get your thoughts on when I should start it. I figured I'd "wake the legs" back up on Saturday or Sunday with something a little bit harder and then be fully back into training next week.
Question, should I modify my "return to training" plan above some other way to help optimize absorbing all the work I did last week?
Is this an appropriate time to jump into the 28 days of consecutive running? IMMT is 24 weeks away. If it is a good time to jump in, when "exactly" should I start my 28 days given my recent Man Camp.
Outside of the 28 days, whats your next training plan you have on tap?
As far as my current plan goes, I figured I'd bang out the last 3 weeks of the OS, with adding a little bit of duration to my Saturday rides (and modified for the 28 day run thing). This will lead into another mini bike camp (as Kori's bodyguard) at the end of March. I hadn't thought much past that, my first big race will be the AmZof long course which is on May 18th. That will be 86miles of crazy hilly biking and 20 miles of super hilly trail running that should take me around 9-10 hours. Needless to say, I'll need to start adding in some big training starting with that late March Big Bike weekend. You think the HIM plan? It'll likely be too cold still to do long outdoor rides that early. I'm also hosting my PA bike camp the last week of April with 4 fast dudes and some chick from Michigan...
Thoughts?
Do you have any details on your PA bike camp in April? If possible, would I be able to join this group?
Btw, I just completed the 28 days of running and it felt really good to just focus on running after the Nov O/S. I ran all of my runs at my Ironman Marathon goal pace of 8:00 and yes, it is easy and I had to really resist the urge to dial up the intensity. But, in the long run, I believe it will help me achieve that goal since I feel very fresh from not pounding out 6:30s and most importantly, no injuries.
frank
Late Night P
I'm currently on Day 5 of my 28-Day of consecutive run block (and feel pretty good so far). Assuming all goes well and I am able to keep this up, Day-16 of my 28 days will be the Hell of Hunterdon Bike ride/race. Should I try to get a short run in after that intense 77 mile ride to keep my run string going or just bag that day and keep going after that? Should I just do like a 2-3 mile run the day before or just stick to the plan with a normal ~6 miler? The HoH is certainly not an A-Race or even a C-Race so I don't mind training right through it. But you know from doing HoH a couple of yrs ago that if I'm trying to hang with the front group that those hills are going to eventually kick my azz!
Checking in... I just finished up my 28-Day run block for the Run durability group. I also did a 3-day big bike camp ~10 days ago. Today was my first day off in a month. I tried to sleep in today, but was up early and didn't know what to do with myself so I stretched and got to work a little early!
I plan to take this as an easy-ish week as I know it will help to absorb all this work and I also hope to bike test on Thursday. Maybe run test, but doubt it unless you really think it is necessary.
I was thinking about making what follows below as a larger forum post, but thought I'd start by putting it here first (knowing there are a bunch of lurkers here anyway). I responded REALLY well to the 28-days of running thing. I don't think I made any bike gains during this time, but didn't lose anything on the bike either. I got really skinny (even though I eat everything in sight, provided it is real food, Gluten-Free, and not Recreational sugar of course
). And my running improved A LOT. I got tired legs and was sore near the end of the 2nd week, but then things got progressively better and by the last week, I felt as good if not better than the very first week. Literally every run felt good for the whole last week. My "talking" run pace probably came down by ~15-20 seconds/mile over this month and my HR at this talking effort dropped by 5-10bpm to ~140ish. My legs feel really good. I have been seeing and ART/Graston/Chiro approx 1 time per week as a preventative measure and I use my recovery boots for 30-50 mins every single night. My final week was ~47 miles which was accidentally the 2nd biggest run volume week of my life, ending with a super strong "easy feeling" run which I "accidentally" set a Half-Mary PR even though my average HR was ~140 and I was talking for ~8 of the miles.
So here's my question. If something is good, is more of something better? I'm typing this with a grin because I know what you are thinking and this isn't it. I'm not trying to fall into the trap of my "precious" workouts and want to do more, more, more... But as a real intellectual question to you. I was dreading the 28-day run block, but now I am so fired up about having done it. Everyone that I mentioned it to said I was crazy and that I needed "recovery", but this is the biggest 4 week improvement I have ever seen in my run and it was EASY, and my legs and body feel really good. Do you think there's room for another 28-day consecutive run block after a few weeks off of it, or should I just enjoy my gains and move on with the Run Durability plan as written by moving into the more bike focused mindset? I'm doing another 3-day, mini-Big Bike Camp at the end of April. My first race this year with a swimming leg won't actually be until IMMT in August (my A++ race). I thought about starting my swim stuff sometime in May (unless you think I should actually start it now instead).
Summary:
1) Is it okay to delay the swim stuff for another month or so
2) Should I just stick to the plan as written and switch my mindset to Bike focus
3) Should I hack the hack with another 28-day run block starting in a couple of weeks instead
I think you CAN do it provided you absorb this well...I don't want a run test by the way...no need given your "accidental" HM pr. You can SWAG run paces to be appropriate if you think your Z4 should bump up. I think you could do another one in June...so kick things off with AmZo, then recover a bit, then 28 days...this will cut back the run just as it's time to start going pretty long -- on run and bike.
I'd also like some "normal" trainnig for a few weeks...
I'm doing PT/ART/Graston/Chiro once a week and Recovery boots every night as well as other core stuff and good nutrition/sleep.
I recovered in exactly 1 week from the AmZof Long Course (which was as hard on my legs as IMLP last yr from a TSS perspective).
I've been putting in a LOT of 5hr rides (1 per weekend) at much higher IF's and my legs seem to be taking it well, followed by a 2nd long ride (~4hrs) the next day most weeks.
My running is going well. Lot's of frequency and racking up the miles. I'm not exactly doing the 28 days straight as I have thrown in a couple "off" days, but in general, taking the "concept" of a lot of run frequency and building that into my training. Long run is up to 1:45 or so but will be extending that going forward. I hit another "accidental" PR on a half-mary last week by negative splitting a run the day after I had just done back-to-back long/hard rides.
I'm actually swimming 3x per week which is way more than the ~1x per week in previous yrs... um, and I turned the heater off in my pool so it's ~60 degrees which is awesome for my leg recovery and helps me to burn what remaining fat I might have (which isn't much at this point).
So all that said, I still need to focus on "absorbing" the work which I know is sooo important. Arguably the thing I do worst is letting go of my "Precious". I'm good at piling on more work, not so good at taking a day off here and there, but trying to at least be conscious of it. Typing this here again to "keep me honest" and at least remind myself of the importance of this.
After all that, I actually have a question about warming up for my upcoming Challenge AC bike leg. I didn't know if it was a "you" question or a "haus" question so instead of putting it 2 different places, I put it here, http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/15749/Default.aspx but would eventually love it if you would chime in with your thoughts.
- 3x a week swimming is good. In final 2 weeks I want as much pool time (ITS JUST DOWN THE STREET) as you can.
- Saturday long ride should have the RPP intervals 25'/5' where you aim to really be solid on the 25s....think .7, .71, .72, etc...always building effort.
- Sunday long ride will soon switch to just getting in time. Use this to focus on being awesome and steady. No PRs here plse. Use some low cadence or standing intervals to make it "work" for you.
- run frequency is good but focus is on that long run esp fueling it EXACTLY as you plan to on race day. Lots of practice required. Looking for last 1/4 to 1/3 to be your strongest of the run...so start smart.
I will check out your challenge AC thread laters....
Thursday (today): I did 2:15:00 run this morning (17 steady miles at 8:00 pace) (gonna try to do an easy 4-5 mile run tonight)
Friday: Swim
Saturday: 5hr bike (simulated AC RR) plus a ~30' brick
Sunday: 3.5-4 hr ABP ride plus a ~25-30' brick
Monday: Swim
Tuesday: Long Run but limit to ~1:45-2:00 (rather not do this on Thursday as a bit too close to the weekend ride, is this too long? not long enough?)
Wednesday: Easy-ish morning bike. Maybe swim in the evening
Thursday: ~45' steady IM "race-pace" run
Friday: Swim
Saturday: Easy spin to check the bike. short run?
Sunday: Race Day! 112 mi TT. Brick run...???
I'm leaving for Mt. Tremblant on the following Wednesday (July 4th weekend) to hopefully do my RR on the course on Thursday (and then again on Fri). Or maybe Fri/Sat if I need an extra day to recover...
Thanks in advance for your thoughts...
This morning on my run it was a beautiful 74 degrees, but 81% humidity in Central Park. I went out for my long run with a couple of friends, one who is much faster and one who is a little slower than me. We started at my "normal" 8:00-8:15 pace and about 3-4 miles in it started to get hard. Then after 6 miles it got really hard. I stopped for a few water breaks and a few walking breaks, but basically slowed to a ~9:00/mi crawl (not counting the stopping or walking breaks). I suffered through 2:15 for 15 miles, but knew immediately that I had built up too much deep fatigue. Oh yeah, I was also told as much in no uncertain terms by the other 3 people that did some parts of the run with me.
I know how I felt and it wasn't just the humidity because the guy I normally drag around the park was dragging me around the park for a change. So, I'm just letting y'all know that I'm going to stand down for a few days with the hopes to set myself up for a final hard 2-3 week push before IMMT. I'm not really looking for advice on how to do this because I know the drill at this point. But I figured it would be better for me to put it out her in a public forum that I recognize how important it is to be self aware and I'm hoping this is just an early warning shot and not a deep fatigue shot (it's still not to late to fix that if it is actually the case). I figure it's just an "early warning" because I absolutely crushed my bike workouts this past weekend (even though I was exhausted on Saturday afternoon) and also had a really really good speed workout run on Monday (after taking Sunday off other than a swim). But yesterday's bike was "blah" at best and now today's run was pretty much a fail. So I will be getting 9 hours of sleep tonight, taking tomorrow off and will go day to day from there.