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"overtrained" & need to rest vs. I'm a wuss...just suck it up and go

I posted this in a related thread, and it was suggested I move it to it's own thread for more feedback:

I find it hard to tell when I'm "overtrained"...or how to "listen to my body" vs. I'm being a wuss and just need to suck it up and get it done.  I find myself struggling with the guilt I often feel after skipping a workout, and the guilt now starts even when I'm having the debate with myself about whether to do said workout.  Specifically, sometimes, like today, I'm sore.  My quads and calves were definitely sore today.  I think it's due to overcooking the bike on Saturday (beautiful weather, got outside, felt like a rocket and just rode hard the whole 2.5hrs because I felt like it) and then running 75mins on Sunday with 3TP miles (which also felt good and strong).  So, I realize now that I "dug a hole" by being stupid and impetuous.  So, what do I do today, when I'm supposed to run 60mins with 3TP miles....but I'm sore and tired....is this my body telling me to back off/rest, or am I just being a wuss?  

Is it OK to run/ride when I'm sore?  Soreness = muscle damage/need for repair.  So, is it counterproductive to proceed?  Should I wait until the soreness is gone?  

I think the answer is: give it a go, and if it hurts more than usual or I think it should, then cut it short/bail.  If after warmup it feels OK, proceed?  That's what I did tonight, and it felt surprisingly pretty good.  Hit all my TP paces....was not as fresh at the end as usual, but I got it done.  Yesterdays Z4 bike intervals were much harder than usual though (cut them to 2 x 12' instead of 2 x 15').

Sorry about the stream of consciousness format, but any advice/perspective appreciated.  

Comments

  • My general thought is that you shouldn't be sore all the time. If you know the cause and it's specific, I would do what you did. Try it and see what happens. If you are hitting your paces, you aren't over trained. But if you're falling off your paces, feeling miserable and dreading your workout, then it's time to take a rest. If you are more sore after today's workout than you were yesterday/today, then time to take a rest. It won't be any better tomorrow if you go hard again, guaranteed. And rest may be relative-instead of running hard, run half the distance in Z1/2. And be disciplined enough to make the plan and do it, not just do what "feels good" while you are out there. keep us posted on what you decide and how your week goes.

    On another note...how do you get that info at the bottom of your post? I see it on others and think it's cool to see people's planned events.
  • Jeff — this is copied from the thread

    I certainly don't want to contradict the WSMs DT and AT, in relation to the importance of consistency — because I do believe that consistency is very important.

    At the same time, it is even more important, IMO, to avoid over-cooking yourself and digging yourself into an overtraining hole. If over-training was an Olympic sport, I would be representing Australia (as Coach P knows only too well as he has helped me get out of a number of such instances).

    You need to always keep in mind that it is how well the body recovers from the work that leads to improved fitness, rather than the work itself — if it was just the work that leads to improved fitness, then over-training wouldn't exist!

    While I'm not a huge Joe Friel fan but agree with him that we should do the minimum training necessary to induce continuous improvement in fitness — it is a sustainability issue.

    As everyone has a different fatigue and fitness response to each dose of training, it seems highly unlikely to me that everyone (or even most for that matter) would get optimal fitness results from following 100% of any EN plan.

    The trick is to recognise how much training stimulus your body can handle and to back-off when fatigue is building too deeply. Now the 'backing-off" might be to dial down the intensity, and thereby contribute towards the consistency goals mentioned. That said, sometimes, you just need to rest.

    Finally, it is the OS with its huge emphasis on intensity that it is very easy to become over-fatigued and end up over-trained.

    In relation to Jeff's question, you need to learn to recognise the symptoms of the early onset of deep fatigue. I recognise that this isn't very helpful in an operational sense, but I have taken quite a few years to now be able to get some idea when I am getting myself into fatigue trouble. Some people have had some success with taking their waking heart rate — a rise of, say, 5 bpm, could indicate the onset of fatigue (or a cold, or lack of quality sleep etc).
  • @Jeff, I think you're on the right track. It's a good idea to do the warmup and then decide from there. Leslie's right, if you're more sore, etc, you better back off before your body does something to make you image.

    @Leslie. Go to profile (click your name at the top of the page). Then click on Forum Settings on the right side of the page. Put whatever you want in the signature block and that will show up at the bottom of your forum posts. It will accept quite a bit of html in there, so you can fancy it up a bit if you know html.
  • @Jeff

    I doubt the strong weekend would over cook you unless you were right at the cusp and it took you over. You may just be tired big time from it right now. I have those same days where it is like man I feel great, so I kick it out and go way too hard. Three days later I am still feeling the affect of it. I would go easy for a few days and see how you feel. No vo2 or run repeats just active recovery.

    I am at the same point. Since week 10 I have lost my power and that is a sure sign of fatigue. The 10 15 10 100% FTP workout that I struggled with but completed last week could not even be accomplished this week. I got off the trainer 5 minutes into the first 10 minute interval. Even my 400 repeats were at a noticeably higher heart rate. The risk with the one size fits all plans is that they don't always. Be it current fitness or age as an example. You have to do the plan to your specific situation. I know I have lost it so I am backing off. I got to the point where I was changing shoes 10 times while on the trainer to see if a different shoe would give me the power back!  The minute I start to go hard my legs feel like lumber. JUST Crazy.

    This is a long season and endurance isn't even really built in one it is a cumulative build over years!  Wise Pete said it best CONSISTENCY will win the day.If you are feeling you need to back off do it. No one is going to think less of you!

  • Very important to listen to your body. To me, signs of overtraining are soreness, increased difficulty of hitting your target zones/paces and the mental fight to complete a workout or even begin a workout. When I find myself debating if I should do the workout, or if I'll do the workout but maybe only 30 min instead of 45 min or so, I know its time to step away. Somewhere around week 8-9, I took a week off from the bike workouts. After the second test week I was somewhat disappointed with my power numbers, and I even had to take a quick break during the 20' FTP, which i didn't do week 1 and then I ended up with the same FTP. It felt 10 times harder during the second testing week. I took a week off, from the bike, found the excitement again to do these hard workouts and now I am hitting my zones much easier again. Sometimes it helps me to put the bike and trainer and all equipment away for several days, just don't even look at it and after several days, the bike becomes like a magnet. I draws me in and all I want to do is bike again. At that point I know, that mentally and physically I am ready to go again.


  • Posted By Jeff Leslie on 15 Jan 2014 10:25 PM
    ...My quads and calves were definitely sore today.  I think it's due to overcooking the bike on Saturday (beautiful weather, got outside, felt like a rocket and just rode hard the whole 2.5hrs because I felt like it) and then running 75mins on Sunday with 3TP miles (which also felt good and strong).  So, I realize now that I "dug a hole" by being stupid and impetuous.  So, what do I do today, when I'm supposed to run 60mins with 3TP miles....but I'm sore and tired....is this my body telling me to back off/rest, or am I just being a wuss?  

    Is it OK to run/ride when I'm sore?  Soreness = muscle damage/need for repair.  So, is it counterproductive to proceed?  Should I wait until the soreness is gone?  

    I think the answer is: give it a go, and if it hurts more than usual or I think it should, then cut it short/bail.  If after warmup it feels OK, proceed?  That's what I did tonight, and it felt surprisingly pretty good.  Hit all my TP paces....was not as fresh at the end as usual, but I got it done.  Yesterdays Z4 bike intervals were much harder than usual though (cut them to 2 x 12' instead of 2 x 15').

    1. The OS plans are serious, hard work - enough in and of themselves to improve your overall fitness (which is in the muscles, right?) and get you ready for the more focused long course training. We add extra credit, or extra curriculars at our peril. (Extra credit = more intervals, longer time, harder intensity then prescribed; extra curriculars = swimming hard, soccer games, etc.)

    2. You have diagnosed your own problem: extra credit on a Saturday bike ride for which your muscles had not been prepared by recent training. That's the cause of the soreness. Probably not an injury like a tendon or muscle *tear*, just extra fluid trying help repair micro damage to muscle fibers and draw away all the "waste" you produced by working beyond your capacity.

    3. Your plan for management was spot on - give it a try, proceed if capable. Then cut back first on length of the interval, then intensity of intervals, per these guidelines: http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=WorkOut+Triage

  • Jeff,

    For me soreness means I'm doing the work.  Extended soreness probably did too much and need to back off a little.  I look for other indicators for overtraining as the OS is a ton of work and my legs get sore, tired etc.  Tracking waking HR, how has my sleep been, my mood.  For me if I start waking up a lot then I'm on the edge. HR is out of wack on the workouts and I wake up and can't sleep I'm over the edge.

    If I did not ride or run on sore muscles I'd miss quite a few of the early OS workouts, probably because I did not get in the pre OS training this year.  When workouts get really hard go to the workout triage.  I will also add in lengthen the rest time between main sets as well.

    http://members.endurancenation.us/R...Out+Triage

    Also note for me if I've got to #3 of the workout triage where I'm just putting in the time I probably need to pull the plug and take the rest.

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