Training pacing too slow for goal?

harrast

Folks, I'm in week 9 of Fitzgerald's 20 week marathon plan to get ready for a May 24 marathon.  Almost all the Fitzgerald runs are at a 7:20 pace (what Fitzgerald considers a Z2 or moderate aerobic pace).  My goal pace for the marathon is 6:50.  Maybe I'm paranoid, but I keep wondering if I should be training at a faster pace (increase my Z2 speed)?  I need to say that there is some Z3 work in the plan (around 10k pace), but I don't do a race pace long run until week 18.  By then it will be too late to correct my pace if I've been too slow.  Should I chill out or do I need to make a course correction? Thanks.  

rlh2000

I'm in a whole different time zone pacewise, but last time I did an open marathon I did my long runs at a 9 min pace (I led a pace group so I had to be dead on) and ended up running an 8:05 pace marathon. I say trust the plan, but curious what faster folks have to say!

Mike Roberts

Hey Steven, I don't know the Fitzgerald plan details, but I do know that many follow it, so it must have some appeal. I've done many a marathon and have tried several plans, and none had me doing the bulk of work at or very close to goal pace. In fact, most is done 45-90 seconds above goal pace, but I've always been able to race at goal pace. In short, if you like what the plan offers and you trust it, then I would relax, follow it, and trust it. If Fitzgerald knows what he's doing (very likely) and you put in the effort, I suspect you'll be rewarded. Just my $.02.

Coach Rich

Did you know that we have marathon plans for the members, available in the training plan dropdown?

cgres123

Should I chill out or do I need to make a course correction?

I'm not a Fitzgerald fan and what ^^^ said, Coach P training plan trumps.

Leslie Knight

Yeah, why are you an EN member and using a different training plan? I'm training for my 4th marathon and my first using the EN plan.  I am really liking training with pace (tried to use HR in the past and that doesn't work for me- once I go faster than a fast walk, I'm out of Z2)  But I would say trust the plan.  That said, the EN plan has me running my long runs at about 1/3 LRP, 1/3 MP, and 1/3 HMP.  That's hard!  I did a HM last weekend and was 4min faster than my 5K time trial and vDOT predicted, so I was pretty happy with the plan.  I, too, am not only in a different time zone, but more like half way across the world from your paces!  So slow, if fact, that I can barely run slow enough for the LRP, so I usually go a bit faster than that.

Robert Sabo

Can't say enough good stuff about the EN marathon plan. It's tough but it builds confidence. I was using it for NYC 2012 and did an 18 mile race with the workout paces for the weekend and PRd the distance. As the weeks went on my expectations raised and was confident I would run sub 2:56 based on multiple long runs and the 18mile "race". Super storm Sandy, however, was the only thing that stopped me. I recommend you take a look at the EN plan and decide for yourself if the paces are right for you.

Anu Rao

I am a whole world apart in my pace than you. But my o2 cents lots of race pace running is a big toll on your body, most plans I've seen do 12 miles max at MP. For marathons long tempos (10K to HM pace) and MP segments, book ended by a lot of easy running are key. Mileage matters. The more important question is are you improving?  I like tune up races and Pete Pfitzinger is a proponent of these, you get evidence along the way of whether you are on track. For what its worth I have never done more than 10 continuous miles MP in training ever, my LR paces are often 10mm but my last marathon was an 8:3x pace.

Take a look at Pfitzinger's Advanced marathoning. or even Jack Daniel's Running formula to see how they structure their plans, you will see a fair amount of easy paced running. Don't worry about it, run a tune up if you are in doubt and see where you stand with regards to the goal. And good luck. 

MattAaronson

@ Steven, a month later, how is the training going? Have you added more MP work or are you sticking with the plan?

harrast

Matt, thanks for asking. I increased my Z2 pace to 7:09 and my Z3 to 6:23. I do a lot of running at Z2 and a significant amount (about an hour/week) at Z3. My weekend long runs are at Z2. The paces are very challenging, and I have a hard time telling myself that I can hold a 6:50 pace when I often struggle with the 7:09 on my long runs. I'm 52 and my heart rate runs about 149 BPM at the Z2 pace. I have dropped 15 pounds during my training, and this is helping. My hope is to shed another 5 pounds and stay healthy until May 25.

At this point I don't have the confidence that I can hold 6:50. I don't know how to get over that. My pre EN marathon PR is a 3:16. I believe I have a sub 3:00 in me (usual vdot of 52-53), but I'm just a hack, and a sub 3:00 at my age is hard to come by.

MattAaronson

I did my MP runs at 6:50 and I can't tell you how many times I was 2 miles into the MP part of a run thinking "holy crap how am I going to hold this for 26 miles if I'm having this much trouble 2 miles into it today". In fact I really took issue with all the people who said MP runs are great confidence-boosters...I felt the exact opposite.

I think overall if you're hitting the paces as described above you clearly have the speed and are trained to take a very legit run at sub-3 (notwithstanding that weather can always throw a curveball). The question mark is probably more around that classic marathon issue, which is if you can hang on in those final miles. But if you've done the training then you CAN.

Btw, with 5 weeks to go, you are essentially 2 weeks out from the start of your taper and 3 weeks out from a very significant reduction in volume. I wouldn't try to drop another 5lb in that time span.

harrast

Yea, that's the feeling. Holy crap, I'm sucking wind at 7:09. How will I hold 6:50 for 3 hours? I do a 26.2k race pace run in a couple weeks. That will help me decide where to pace this race. I do believe in race day magic, but I have crashed and burned in enough marathons to know not to expect too much. I think you're right about losing additional weight. I'm really careful about what I eat, so I'm drifting down, but probably not 5 pounds. Maybe a couple. Thanks for your encouragement.

MattAaronson

As for the race pace run. Do yourself a favor and actually sign up for a race to use as the workout. You will feel totally different. One of my key workouts was about 5 weeks out from the marathon -- it was an 18-miler with the last 14 at race pace. I signed up for a half marathon, showed up 45 minutes early and ran 5 miles easy. Then I went to the start line (with 18,000 other people!) and ran the half marathon at my marathon race pace. I also wore my marathon race shoes. Because I didn't trust myself to run MP in the race, I ripped the chips off my bib so the time wouldn't be official. I ran it in 1:28:30 which turned out to be pretty close to my exact marathon pace. There is NO WAY I would have done that without race conditions.

I will say that my LT run the Wednesdya after the Sunday "race workout" was a fail, so it did take something out of me. But that was a big confidence-boosting workout.

harrast

Good idea. I'll look for a race to motivate me for my RR. Here's today's long run summary:

April 19, 2014
22 mile Training Run

Weighed in after morning pit stop at 151.8 Lbs. Ate 3 cups apple sauce with a scoop of whey protein. An hour later (maybe 8:30am) chased it down with two waffles with some whipped cream on top (it was delicious). Drank water with my food. Getting ready for my workout drank a bottle of perform and ate a sleeve of Clif Bloks. Worked on my laptop until starting my run about noon. During run drank 42oz Perform. Took one gel about mile 10. Temperature was lower 50s and sunny with a steady wind out of the east. Wore a thin jacket to break the cold wind. At the end of my run drank 10 ounces of Endurox and weighed in at 148.4. So, even with drinking 52oz. lost about 4 Lbs., or about 2.6% of bodyweight.

Felt well for first 18 miles and maintained planned 7:09 pace except when stopping briefly to wipe eyes with a wet towel or refill my water belt (with Perform).
At mile 18 pain in hips/flexors, right foot, calf overcame my will to push. My heart rate dropped from 150 to 143 as I slowed due to major suck. Mile 20 was my worst mile at 9:09. I began to dissociate and think about the birds or anything to get my mind off the pain. I managed to push the pace down below 9 minutes, but was still very much fighting the pain with every step. Average pace for entire run was 7:20 including filling water bottles and wiping eyes (did not stop watch).

Take away:

1. I need to drink more because I lost more than 2% of bodyweight. Drink enough to maintain above a 2% weight loss.
2. Be prepared for the suck at mile 18-20. Should I start slower? Will this move back the suck?

MattAaronson

I'm a bit confused. Is the "pain in hips/flexors, right foot, calf" just due to fatigue, or injury? If it is fatigue, then slowing it sown and completing the run makes sense to me. That's what builds endurance. But if this is injury stuff, you need a different gameplan.

harrast

Hips/flexors is fatigue, foot is a combination of Thompson's neuroma and a ganglion cyst. I've struggled with the foot for this entire training cycle. Feels like I have a marble under the ball of my foot. I can run with only modest pain as long as I focus on mid-foot strike. Had an MRI 10 days ago but haven't gotten a read back from the doc. I'm trying to push through and get this race done before I make a decision about the foot.