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2014 Week #11 RUN THREAD

Couple of teasing days here in the MidWest with temps hitting 50 and then plummeting back to 0 the next night. Which means two things:

1. Ice doesn't look like ice when the sun in shining and it FEELS warm. Careful out there!

2. Spring is just around the corner...and so is RACE SEASON. We're well past the OS half-way point. Hope you're all feeling stronger and more fitter than you did post-holidays!

Check out the podcast on how you'll have redefined your own self-image by the time all this crazy work is over. 

Have a great week and Happy St. Patty's Day!

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Comments

  • Perhaps I was due for an off day. Hope that's all it was, because it was just hard out there today. Maybe the weekend reversal was not a good thing. At least this run was outside and a bit rolling. 9 miles total. 2 x 3 mi at HMP type effort (1 mi recovery) was the workout. No complaints at all about conditions.

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/463114040

    Target probably around 6:40
    First 3 mile interval averaged 6:35.
    Second 3 mile interval averaged 6:44
    HR was more like threshold level than HMP.
  • 5.5 EZ miles on the TM this morning including the strides. I felt good and wish I could've kept running. IM season will be here soon enough and I'll be wishing I didn't have to run as far!
  • Brick off bike ....testing new Hookas!

    felt a bit odd but settled in after about a mile....well see but I think me like.

    3ml ~27min 4x hill sprints + one more surge up hill on way home.

    ~9:15 general run pace  (GRP) w/o checking watch

    felt pretty good.

  • Brick after bike felt okay with the exception of the hill strides which really burned the legs.  Was a nice day in Tx so the sunset run home was actually nice. 
  • My second least favorite workout today … long run of 18 miles in 2:34 (8:34 avg). My Garmin 310 XT/Computer connection is on the fritz, so I only have my memory of my splits to go on. I was supposed to do 4 mi LRP (8:50-9:05), 6 mi MP (7:40-8:30), 4 mi LRP, then 4 mi @ TP, LRP, TP. LRP. I managed the first 14 miles OK, but couldn't get my speed past the frontier between HMP and MP (7:30s) during the last 4 miles.

    My LEAST favorite workout? 21 miles, coming up in 2 weeks. For IM racing, I generally do long runs in the range of 2:20 +/1, 16.5-17 miles max. Even that is a trauma for me. I just don't like to run (in training) for that time/effort level, which is why I swore off marathons 10 years ago. Then Boston 2013 happened, and I had to come out of retirement to get back there this year … NEVER AGAIN!

  • @David-I know everybody is trying out Hokas. I don't like them as they are very stiff. Next time you are shopping, take a look at Altras. The Torin is really padded but much more flexible. All are zero drop
  • @Betsy....not to turn this into a "equipment thred".... but I get ya ...they seem very stiff in the hand...not so much on the road -so far. likely due to my 184#. I'll keep the Altras in mind.  Was surprised that the hill sprints seemed fine....Ill see with the 200-400s.

    IM keeping the OS speed work but tweeking the OS plan by doing the Marathon prep Long run on SAT and moving OS Bike to SUN....adding additional time to Tues run if able at GRPish

  • Al - Those 18 milers with HMP in them are crushing. I think they are as hard as the race, but maybe that's the point. With any real level of fatigue, I just see them as almost impossible to finish without superhuman effort. I almost think you just go as hard as you reasonably can in the end and call it good.

    I think on strategy for the 21 miler is to make a "destination" run of it...but it does depend on the ability to get water/nutrition along the way to do it that way.
  • Wm - I'm already @ the "destination" point. Yesterday's run I drove 30 minutes to get to a parking spot @ the intersection of two flat paved trails. So it was 7/7/4 mile out and backs, retrieve a fresh bottle, get some gel, then off again. The last time I ran 21 mile/3 hours in training was more than ten years ago; I just hate the effect it has on my thighs and toes.

    Local running club has its 40th annual 20 miler next Saturday, part of a series starting Jan 1 of 5/10/15/20 (both K and mi options) originally designed as prep for Boston. But its a week too soon on my plan for the last long run, so I will keep searching for options. Once I did a half marathon, with a two mile warm up and a 3 mile CD (that part was a killer, as I had raced the HM hard) for 19+ miles total in 2:38, as a pre-race long run.

    And yes, I firmly  believe the EN (McCrann) style long runs are really just a shorthand way to mimic what goes on in the last hour of a marathon, without actually having to run one. It works, though … race day is usually easier than those buggers.

  • Found a 1/4 mile stretch near work in an industrial park for today's 8 x 400's. Pretty quiet even just before lunch hour on this stretch, and the semi drivers making deliveries worked with me. The bugger was a 15 mph wind out of the NW that was 100% in my face and slightly uphill one way and 100% at my back and slightly downhill the other. So I ran them 1 into the wind and 1 with the wind with about a 2:30 RI in between each.

    Not a measured course so here are the Garmin paces from each lap: 7:51, 8:07, 7:58, 8:09, 7:43, 8:17, 7:50 and 8:15.

    First time I tried these near work on a stretch of pavement. I prefer the track. But this worked rather well.

    @Al and Wm, the EN long runs with HMP are hurtful. But the worst (best?) I ever trained with was when I was just a runner and was training with a McMillan plan. Alternating weeks of a long run at an LSD pace (up to 2 x 23 in the final weeks), and a slightly shorter but ever more hurtful Fast Finish Long run of 14 to 18 miles on the alternate weeks. You would run all but the last 6-8 miles at LSD pace, and then start picking up the pace over the last 6-8 starting at marathon pace and ending up at 5K pace for the last mile. Ouch.
  • I'm in Houston on business and did a 62' run with 4x7'(4')@z4. Not only is it the longest run since January 9 (by 17') and only my second outdoor run since then (all the others were run/walk stuff on the treadmill), but also it was the first structured "workout" with legit z4 efforts. On the one hand I completed the workout without any injury issues, which is great and I should be more excited about that.

    On the other hand the performance underscored how much I have regressed in my running and really causes me to wonder where I'll be by the time I race this year. Just a few months ago I'd be nailing the intervals at 6:18-6:22 pace (and only taking 400m recoveries!). Today my HR was up at the high end of the normal z4 range and I was mid-6:40s. My average cadence in each interval was 179 vs a typical 183-186. So I have a long way to go and with my "A" race in early June it is apparent I have too far to go to get back to my regular fitness by then. I will need to adjust my expectations clearly.

    Based on the run today I have pegged my VDOT at 51, which is a t-pace of 6:44 (i.e. what I was hitting today with my HR peaking at 189…so I think appropriate). Amazing to think I ran both half and full marathons at VDOT 54.5 just a few months ago (the half mary over 15 sec/mile faster than my 1-mile intervals today!!), but that's water under the bridge now.

    Time to be as consistent as possible, do the work, and progress and speed will be the output. Pointless to reach for the past…actually dangerous to do that, from an injury and fatigue perspective.

    Today's run: 8.58 miles in 1:02:01, avg 7:14/mi. Avg HR 170 / max 189. Avg cadence 175, vertical oscillation 9.9cm, ground contact 228ms, stride length 1.27m. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/463908304

    MS 4x 7'(4') –6:46, 6:42, 6:43, 6:41
    Remainder 6' – 7:16

    Short water stops after intervals 2 and 3.
  • @ Matt...it will come back soon enough.  Just stay injury free.  You may not hit the same Z4 paces you had coming off of run only training, but you can get close.  I have no doubt you'll be ready by June for a good HIM.  I actually think the time off my be good for you in the long run given all your responsibilities outside of triathlon.

    @ Al...for somebody who dosen't like the long training runs, you sure can still do them pretty darn fast.  Good work.  You're ready for Boston.  Go enjoy the event.

    I only ran 4 miles this am as I'm cutting back the mileage this week (I've had 6 stratight weeks in the 26-28 miles per week range).  2 EZ miles then did 2 x 1 mile intervals.  Did the first one at 6:46 and the second at 6:36, both under my Z5 pace of 6:53.  I was feeling good and know that I could have done 1 or even 2 more mile repeats at that pace if I had wanted to, but stopped to keep the mileage down.  I think I need to test or just bump up my VDOT to 48 (from 47).  Then did a core workout, lifted a few weights, and a good stretch.  This afternoon we went snorkling in the Keys...great time.

  • I decided to do 4 800s instead this am with recoveries to HR less than 110, all sub z5(7:57):
    7:51
    7:49
    7:39
    7:40
    Then finished with a 400@7:30
    Boom!
    Our local Tri for the Cure is this Sunday-a mini sprint but they added a 5k which I signed up for. It's not a great course but flat so excited to see if I raise my VDOT. My last test was done sleep deprived the previous 2 days.
  • @Matt, with consistent training I bet within 2 or 3 weeks your T-pace will be considerably lower. Like you said in your post it's the first legit Z4 efforts you've done in over 2 months!

    I tossed and turned all night and only fell deeply asleep for about 2 hours before the alarm went off, ugh. I got up anyways and did the run before work. I did a little over 8 miles on the TM today 8 X 400(400). Hit the Z5 pace on every interval and then added 2 miles at a pace half way between EZ and MP. I was really dragging at the end of the day. I was planning on hitting the pool but ran some errands instead. Going to hit the sack right now and should sleep better than a baby.
  • TM Run:~5 min WU with a couple 10mph surges

    7xZ5 pace used:TM 8.2,8.4x2,8.6,8.8,9.0,9.2 mph  then Z2 step down taper to finish out the hour.  Then a bit of AB work.

    No emotional "wind" ...just had a pet pass away -wife was in hospital back in AZ (same day surgery) and our 18 yr old cat  (wife cant have children so this was her baby) passed away while she was away. And I'm here in NJ and not home to give comfort. 

      No energy to keep running tonight.

  • Lots of talk about sleep difaculties...
    I have chronic intermitant insomnia....even when not on an overnight-in house call scedual ...but thats another issue....but for everyone:
    One BIG issue (im bad at this) is laptop/cell phone or flat screen monitors/TV all stimulate the brain to think it needs to be awake. Ya realy need to avoid these at leats 1-2 hours before trying to sleep. Even 5 min of looking at phone can jack up the whole "bedtime brain timing".
  • @ Matt - Have faith. As others have told you, run fitness to race levels will return sooner than you think. I've twice in the last decade come back from total on the couch episodes (foot surgery, cycling accident), and running came back quicker and more completely than either swimming or cycling. EG, three months total needed to get back to previous half marathon race times.

  • @Matt Listen to @Al.

    We have a local female pro runner here in Little Rock. Her career includes a "B" standard Olympic Trial run in 2012 with a career best of 2:37 in the marathon.

    In early 2013 she was injured and had surgery to repair a seriously torn hamstring as it attaches near the butt (as I remember). After a long recovery and many doubts, in November 2013 she ran a 2:42:55 in her first return to the marathon. The Olympic Trial "B" standard is 2:43:00. She did not train to hit that number, nor was that her plan. Amazed all of us...what a comeback.

    You can come back. You can return to your former conditioning. I've seen it done.

    [p.s. she was invited earlier this month to run with the elite women at Boston. If you're around Boston, look up my friend Leah Thorvilson]
  • 7 miles last night with 3 x 1 mile at Z3. I could not hit Z4 which is typical for me on mile repeats. I'm always amazed at the vast gulf between Z1 and Z2-5. Is running in between Z1 and Z2 the gray zone?
  • @ Paul  Good question.  I find for anything less than 10 miles I fall into around my GRP which feels like a legit effort but not a strain....Z2 actually feels like work...although not that "hard" it isn't comfortable/natural (kinda want to go faster to get it over or slow down to something 'reasonable')

    I have been adding miles and use the 30"above/at/30" bellow GRP which seems good for me. ALthough Z2 is M pace it still is a pace that would be a PR 1/2M if taken for that distance.  Sooooo good to push it in this zone I suppose.

    Not sure what the 'official' word is.

  • Local track wasn't available, so did the 7 x 400 on the TM this morning.  400's at 1:40 with 1.5 miles at 8:20 after.  Dallas RnR Half Mary this Sunday...looking for a PR!

  • @David, best wishes on a speedy recovery for your wife and sympathy to both of you regarding your cat.

    @Paul, I'm not sure what the "gray zone" is but I'm surprised by the difference between Z1 and Z2 as well. For me it's currently 1:10/mile.

    @Steve, good luck with the race this weekend, have fun and crush it!

    A little over 5 miles at "EZ" pace this morning on the TM except it wasn't that EZ. My legs felt like concrete and the run never got easier, I thought about bagging it several times but just kept chugging along. I kept wondering how I was ever going to ride tonight but that's a different story. In the end I finished it but I didn't even try the strides. I did run 5 minutes at MP at the end but it was a struggle.
  • Doug - the gray zone is ineffective training. I.e., not fast enough to have a strong training effect and not easy enough to be recovering for the next run. That said, most of my Z1 runs are more like Z 1.5.

    Did a short 2.24 mile brick run after tonight's VO2 bike ride.
  • @Doug thanx for the well wishes.

    @Paul....good point about too fast for recovery.....reminds me of how I always laugh at the Strava ride/runs "EZ recovery day" with 6 segment PRs LOL    However I find that when going >10 miles variations off of GRP (average difference between Z1 & Z2 pace) seem about right for SS effort. Or as "added miles" after harder intervals..... say of Z4 mile rpts. Z1 is cool down speed but Z2 seems too fast (Hr/RPE usually is Z3+ by then at that VDOT pace).  I do get why you wouldn't want to use this pace for most WKOs and definitely not for tempo/interval work.

  • Just checking as I've been missing in action for about a week.  In any event getting some work in as this has become a run focus week for me 30-45' the last 4 days.  I'll be out of touch for the weekend as I earn some SAU curling with my wife for a weekend fun tournament.
  • Sorry gang - some nutty work and family circumstances have cut into my real job of posting here all the time. :-)

    Actually, week got pretty messed up, but I've gotten in the net of the workouts in. Definitely feeling the cumulative fatigue by now, though and I'll be ready for the taper to start in 10 days.

    Thursday I got in my tempo run. 6 mi easy...actually holding back a bit...at 8:00 pace, then 9 mi averaging 6:50 pace on my rolling loop. Definitely work.

    I'm really impressed with everyone getting in those hard bricks and VO2s this late in the game. Good stuff gang.

    @Steve - good luck at your race!!!
  • Yesterday, I rode to the college track (9 miles each way) and back for my track workout. First (full) day of spring, and all, bright, sunny, 50F. I did IP intervals (target pace: 6:54) as follows: 4 x 200, 2 x 800, 4 x 400, Full Recoveries (equal time intervals/recovery): 200s: 6:33/41/49/44; 800s 6:48/47; 400s: 6:48/40/32/25. I felt pretty good about being able to power out the final 400s without fading. Gotta remember that when it comes time to run the marathon next month.

    While I was doing those, I notice these are about the paces I was hitting mile repeats in 10-12 years ago (6:35-6:50 with 2 min recovery). Hmm...

  • I was interested in seeing how my 5k run is off the bike - I am seeing big time improvements! My last official test was 26:30 - I ran a 24:30 a couple of weeks ago and down to 22:25 today. It was not my official course but excited to see 7:14 minute miles again. It has been a while!!!!
  • A workmanlike brick run today after the 90' FTP ride containing 50' @z4. I hopped onto the mill without delay and just cruised along at EP for 30' (7:14/mi). Rather than a psudo-EP run where my HR creeps up over the course of the run and is into the 180's by the end, today was just rock solid at ~170. Great stuff. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/465653016

    Then I got off the mill and went to the post office and stood on my feet for 2 HOURS waiting in line to submit passport applications for two of my kids. Unreal.

    I did a very fast transition today between bike and run (not a race simulation because I changed shorts, but very quick nonetheless, <2 min). I'm loving the new Zoot Ultra TT shoes for these treadmill runs and they went on a lot more smoothly than my KSwiss used to. I'm looking very forward to racing in these suckers (although mancona is trying to convince me that the Kiawe is even better...but with less drop I'm waiting to be more completely over the run injury to test them out).</p>

    Cheers!

  • Today was supposed to be the big sexy RR run but I pulled the plug and just put in the distance. Fatigue, 20 degree weather again and 20 mph winds combined to let me know it just wasn't going to be a representative RR anyway. Haven't downloaded the data yet but it was somewhere in the 7:45 range for the 18 mi. Nutrition went well (not too cold! Left it in the car and ran loops)

    I'm disappointed this is how it worked out but I think it was the right thing to do.

    Good news is that the legs feel good afterward.
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