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Anthony Smallwood micro topic

Coach P,

As discussed yesterday running is a no go for at least two weeks.  I'd like to then test my knee with light running and see if things are better, and then resume fast running in 4 weeks.  If that doesn't work, it's MRI time and more plan adjustments. 

Swimming hard is a go since I'm a 2 beat kicker for the most part anyway. 

Cycling hard should be okay too, I will know today after work and will update this topic then. 

I'm in week 12 of the beginner short course plan. 

Thanks.

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Comments

  • @Anthony, okay, let me know how the bike went...on the swim, watch the flip turns!!
  • I rode 30 minutes yesterday to test my knee, went home and iced it and checked everything out. I did some light stretching and checked my range of motion. Honestly, taking a week off and seeing the doctor was the smartest thing I did. My prognosis: Everything is good to go swimming and biking as hard as I want. Running will have to wait a few more weeks to not aggravate the original problem, and I will need to get back into running slowly. My plan is to slowly jog (snail pace) or walk my race at the end of the month. Then I want to get back at it hard in May (running).

    The trainers I know at the gym were all making me swear if it gets bad or I have pain in the back of the knee to immediately get the MRI done. This morning I have less pain than yesterday. It's slowly getting better.

    Amazingly enough, I don't do flip turns yet. Maybe that's why I like 50m pools and open water more than some others. I haven't put a priority on it, since I can't flip turn in the lakes or bayous I've raced in.

  • Great!! Remember you can water run as well...might want to do that 3-4 times before you head back outside. Just a thought! Keep up the smarts! :)
  • Okay coach, the knee is feeling 95%. The only motion that causes any pain is a deep twist. I want to get back into running very slowly. I'm doing a sprint race this weekend and my plan is to swim hard, bike my arse off and WALK! Yes sadly I'm going to walk and enjoy the venue. Starting next week I want to work back into running slowly (week 16 short course beginner). I've done a bit of water running at each of my recent swim sessions and there are no issues with that.

    I would like to be able to slowly jog half of the 10K or more for my race on 6/1. And then when I start my GET FASTER plan the following week, I want to be able to do the workouts and get faster.

    Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated. Remember the Long Term goal this season is IM Austin. Everything leading up to that is low priority.
  • To add a little more detail. Today I was doing the bike workout 6X1 min at 120%. Well I was indoor on a cybex bike. For the 1 min intervals I was around 300W no problems with the knee at all. And that's way more than 120% of my FTP right now. I should have my stages power meter soon I'd hope (ordered on March 26th).

    I finished up the 60 minutes of riding and did 3 minutes of treadmill walking and then 1 min of jogging (13 min / mi pace), super slow.... VDOT 2ish..... then walked a minute, and then jogged another minute at the same pace. I then got off and checked my knee over thoroughly. Verdict, the knee is weak from the injury which causes some discomfort jogging. There is no noticeable effect after the jog, swelling or pain etc. The discomfort is weak tendons around the bottom part of the kneecap I'm certain.

    So I'm thinking of doing something really silly like couch to 5K or Daniel's walk/run white plan for the next 4 weeks. What's your thoughts on this?

  • Anthony - thanks for the detailed update! You're absolutely right to keep things slow and progressive. Right now I'd start off with simply walk running four times a week for a total of 20 minutes. You can complement this with water running or do it after bike workout for a miniature brick.

    we're looking for consistency here, not flash. Keep it on the simple smooth surface and don't worry about the intensity just yet. As you noted, we need you need to get strong first before we worry about speed. You should also check into kenesio taping. There's some great resources over here: www.athletestreatingathletes.com
  • Other issues; work trips.

    May 2nd to May 10th, Middle East, hotel may have indoor cycle and treadmills. A pool is highly unlikely. I'm thinking honestly just do a lot of walking (will be on my feet all day) and get the 20 min X 4 in of walk/jogging.

    May 11th to May 17th Utah; outside all day looking at rocks for work. Lots of walking and on feet all day again. Indoor cycling might be possible (4 different hotels, new one each night), outdoor or indoor running is very likely in US hotels, but swimming may be a huge miss at all of them (small pools make for poor laps). I"ve been meaning to invest in a swim tether to use in small pools including at home...... Any suggestions?

    I'm starting to think 6/1 is really not a B priority race anymore, maybe Cish now. I'm not going to be able to run a 10K by then realistically.

    So then my 6/2 GET FASTER training is really the priority for Austin in October.
  • I think your plan is ok...active and healthy is important. So a good core / flex routine can help too...think 30' a day. I would add a swim cord to that for dry land work...not a tether as I am not a fan of that really. We can always cram swimming into the last 2 weeks if need be.

    What the heck are you looking for? :)
  • Sometimes for work we have to meet with clients to present our work, but these two trips are to study rocks. I'm looking at client core samples from wells they drilled the first week in the Middle East. The 2nd week in Utah is an educational geology trip that we are taking clients on. My work as a petrophysicist in the energy industry is always interesting, but we are overly busy. I have more work to do than I can finish in a lifetime. Many petrophysicists I know are way past retirement age and still working. It's an undermanned skill in the energy business. My original background is mechanical engineering and nuclear power in the Navy. Triathlon is a hobby and I try to set a good example for my family staying relatively fit and completing challenging things. My training will always be interrupted by life and work, but I'm booking every weekend off from February 1st next year until IM TX. I will not miss a Saturday or Sunday ride for anything during those months as it would be too detrimental.

  • That's awesome! I love learning about things but I'm headed to a triathlon. :-) Happy to help you on the journey and to keep you honest… Good call on planning ahead.
  • Well the knee doc says I have a torn medial meniscus in my left knee. How is that for a bummer? I did a sprint tri and a week hiking in Utah on this thing, now I just want it fixed. I have my MRI tomorrow at noon. After that the doc will tell me what he wants to do and I will schedule it ASAP. I'm going to make a post in Macro now asking for some delay time getting ready for the Austin 70.3. The doc thinks I will be back on the bike right away. I'm going to get some one on one swim lessons lined up with my master's coach and focus on the bike for a while I guess. The 6/1 Olympic, I'm going to pass on and see about the July Sprint.

  • Anthony -- bummer, but you doing the right thing by getting it taken care of. Be sure to do the due diligence and make sure that you're confident about the diagnosis and the plan of action. Always good to doublecheck. Once you're back please let us know, we can easily manipulate a plan to accommodate your situation.
  • Thanks. I meet with the doctor Tuesday to find out the plan of action. I will update this topic then. I want it taken care of ASAP. Not doing anything at all is depressing and driving me crazy, but it's better than making the knee worse.
  • Agreed. Your knee is your coach right now, and we have to listen to it. Looking forward to the update.
  • Well the doc was a bit confusing today. His MRI diagnosis is no torn anything and no surgery needed. He said there is a ton of water in the knee though and that the swelling is caused by damaged cartilage. He said the damaged cartilage is being shed and that the knee is trying to repair it so that causes the swelling and pain.

    His final suggestion, he prescribed a super strength anti-swelling med (NSAID) and warned not to take any other NSAIDS along with his. He said go use my knee as I want, using the NSAID to control inflammation and ice. He thinks it will all clear up in a few weeks. He wants me to check back in after 3 weeks. He says he will only operate if I beg him to do so.

    My plan. Skip this weekend's race (haven't been training enough). I'm supposed to start the get faster plan next week. So today I'm going to do a one hour medium pace bike ride. Tomorrow I'm going to go for a jog with the wife. And then I'm going to see where I'm at. I will probably attempt a fairly long bike ride this weekend (2 hrs or so) and a slowish 5K to see where I'm at (around 40 min). My fastest 5K last season was 28 min. I'm nowhere near that right now. I'd still like to get to the 20 or less I could run in HS someday.

    I'm expecting quite a bit of pain actually but hopefully with the strong NSAID and ice I can keep going through it. If in 3 weeks it's still awful, I will tell the doc then.

    It feels great right now, but I haven't done anything in a week. We shall see what happens.

    It's a good thing IM TX is so far off. It may take a while to sort this out. I want to execute a good race for the Austin 70.3 in October too. I'm starting to worry about that right now.

  • That's confusing but better than "you are screwed!" Before you do intensity I'd rather you go on some flavor of Basic Week to build up fitness with minimal risk. Can you plse head over to the Macro Forum with Coach Rich and ask him to draft some kind of week you can repeat as we begin this journey?
  • Okay Coach Rich said to skip the get faster plan and load up the HIM beginner plan and go from there. He also said to skip the interval run and do a 2nd bike intervals. I'm scared this might make me hate cycling.

    Okay so for the minus 1 week. I did a short walk/jog with the wife, dogs and baby on Wednesday with no issues. Thursday I did the week 1 bike ride and pushed it hard. Gosh I'm way out of shape due to not exercising much for two months. The knee felt fine. It swells but the anti-inflamatories keep it under control and pretty much pain free. Friday I did more walking with the family. Saturday I did a 90 minute ride, but was tired from pushing Thursday. I do an out and back and my worst climbs are the return. I felt fine Sunday but rested. Today I did the week 1 swim and swim golf.... dropped 10 after the drills 6 seconds and 4 strokes. Sad. My swim sucks, so starting my one on one lessons soon is a good thing.

    I know Rich said not to do it, but I'm going to try the 4X800m tomorrow. My plan is to do the 800s at 10kish pace and walk 400. I'm going to see if I can do all 4 and see how the knee feels after. I did run a few strides yesterday out pushing the jogging stroller and no issues.

    The Wednesday bike ride is all go.

    I'm looking forward to using the first 3 weeks to establish a minimum fitness base for testing in week 4.

    I'm really worried about the long runs on Thursday right now, and I will probably skiip the Wednesday brick for a while. I will probably walk the dogs and kiddo for 30-45 minutes 3 days a week as well.
  • Anthony - across 10 years of coaching, I have never seen an athlete coming back from a serious issue who jumped right into intensity then say "man that was a really good idea!" I don't know what else to say to you other than please don't do that. I would much rather have you run 30 minutes four times a week and we slowly build that up.

    Ultimately a race performances has far less to do with peak fitness than it does with durability and overall wellness.

    It's hard to grasp that sometimes with our focus on high-intensity training and data, but truth is, race day has a different set of demands.
  • I agree it's not a great idea. I should've been much more specific. I was going to do the run at whatever pace I could comfortably perform it. I wasn't going for any kind of quickness really but to just get out and open up the lungs and legs a bit.

    I did it. I was slow enough that I could've timed myself on a sundial today. I've lost a lot of fitness since baby was born on 11/4 and leading up to that event.

    So how about I run on my assigned run days? No real intensity but I try and run 30 minutes out of the allotted time and walk the remainder. I did a slow to quick jog for 800m today followed by 400 walking, repeat. I felt depressed with my lack of fitness, but I still have lots of time before Austin.

  • I'm on the HIM beginner plan. My swim lessons with the local coach will be on Thursdays. Can I switch the Thursday long run and Friday swim each week? I realize this may make the Saturday bike ride a bit difficult, but I'm okay with that. Or should I try and double up on Thursdays with the swim and run?

    Thanks,
    Anthony
  • Ahhhhhhhhh! Got it. :) Run walk as you can. If you do that you can patch together faster bouts of running than you could probably sustain without the walk breaks. Just always finish in each run like you had a little more left in the tank!! After 6 consistent weeks you'll be right back on track!!!!
  • I agree. It will probably take 6 weeks of walking / running to get back in the groove. I'm way out right now. It's laughable how slow I am and how fast the heart rate climbs. The knee is getting better as the doctor predicted. The running made it swell, but not as bad as before. Yesterday's bike ride actually loosened it up and made it feel better. I will have to take more NSAIDs after running obviously.

    I had my first swim lesson today. Can I swap Friday's swim with Thursday's run? Or should I just run Thursdays and swim more Fridays? That would give me another chance to reinforce what I learn on Thursday. I'm paying for 10 30 minute lessons at a time. I imagine after 10, I will be much better. I may take 10 more again this winter too.
  • At this point time It's not about absolute speed, just the progress you're making. Keep an eye on that and use that as a motivational tool.

    You can swim on Thursdays if you want -- up to you if you want to try it and see what you think.
  • Had knee surgery on 9/10. Meniscus was torn in two places in the rear outside of left knee. Doc says it's all fixed up. I'm cleared to start swimming and biking this weekend. I'm back to ground zero.... and lost all of this year. Next year I need to make huge strides forward. I will be going to macro for advice on starting from ground zero.
  • Anthony -- the recovery is better if only b/c we know you are on the mend! First things first, you have to do all the PT and rehab work they suggest. No sense in skipping that step. And the pool should be your best friend -- for swimming and water running when you are ready!!
  • My PT work is done. No rehab. I'm under doctor's orders to resume normal activity. I have a follow up in another 2 weeks. I have anti-inflamatory to take and lots of ice packs. I will be swimming and cycling starting today. I have enough flexibility in the leg to cycle again finally. I can now bend my knee past 90 degrees from the reduced swelling. Doc says ellipticals and treadmills first to gauge pain and then pavement. He says somedays I will exceed what I can do but then I need to backoff and give it more time. I have no PT or rehab assignments from the Doc. I've been released to do triathlons. He would just prefer I stick to shorter ones.

    My wife wants to do the Turkey Trot 5K in 2 months. I may be doing my own version of couch to 5K for kneehab. I'm actually walking much better now than before the surgery. The knee doesn't feel funny at all anymore. What hurts is the swelling and amount of bruising blood in my leg from the surgery.

  • Let's not forget that that swelling and bruising is your body's way of saying that it's not quite ready yet for full-screen activity. I'm a huge fan of pool running and the cycling is okay as well. I would be very cautious with the weight-bearing activities keeping it to even just some longer walks hikes outside first. We just want to see how your leg responds to even baseline workouts.
  • Okay Coach.... after a terrible OS of gaining more weight not being able to go all out and battling the holiday bulge, I'm ready to go 100% again in all things except running. I have done some jogging and my recovery is pain free from it. My knee is ready, and so am I. I am ready to have a great 2015 after terrible 2014 and 2013 thanks to having a newborn combined with a pretty bad knee injury.

    My OS was pretty bad. I have been able to complete the last 3 weeks of the plan. Cycling no problems, running is jogging/walking making sure to keep speed down and my stride short since I don't wanto to aggravate my knee. After gaining way too much weight since TX 70.3 in 2013, I'm looking to get back there and do better this year. I've lost 8lbs in the past 3 weeks and plan to lose 2 until I hit 200 and then reduce that goal to 1 lb a week to 175. I'm counting calories via MyFitnessPal and honestly if I don't count calories I gain. So this is a must.

    My first big hiccup of the season will occur in mid March. OS ends this week then two weeks of Swim Camp. No issues there. Then I enter week 11 of HIM beginner plan on 3/16. I'm looking forward to and dreading the bid day #1 on the 21st, but it will give me a good feel for where I am and how far I need to go in 9 weeks. It's going to hurt.

    The hiccup occurs in week 14. I have my Race Rehearsal on the 14th and my first local Sprint TRI on the 15th. do I just do the RR and know I'm going to stink on the 15th? Honestly I don't care about the race other than it's my first triathlon in a year and will be the first one where my knee isn't totally F'd up in almost 2 years.

    So my concerns and questions are:

    1) Do you have any tips or advice on how to get back into running shape from esentially ground zero? Any required reading on my part? I know it's a twofold problem and I've experienced it both ways. Any weight lost is free run speed and less knee stress. I was 208 before Galveston in 2013. I'm sitting on 228 right now. I plan to be 203 by Galveston this year and 175 or less by IM FL. Do I just run/jog/walk the full allotted time even if I can't hit all of the intervals until strength endurance return and I can hit the targets? This is the approach I've been using the last 3 weeks. Just go the duration and let speed and mileage build up naturally as I heal and get smaller.

    2) How do I handle week 14 of HIM plan with race rehearsal on Saturday and po dunk local St Patty's TRI on Sunday? I also have 2 sprints to contend with later this year during IM training so this will be good to learn before then too.
  • AS - love the focus and you concrete targets. I font envy the journey you are on, but I can sense your commitment from over here. Performance aside, just stop for a second to think how awesome it will me to be 175. Let that sink in.

    First and foremost is a healthy happy knee. So yes, it's running for time not intensity for the forseeable future. Remember most folks don't run at all in an IM so it's not like you need to muralize yourself one for a Nov race.

    I say keep it run / walk as you build up and really take care of it post run. Any issues we back off.

    Similar to that thought, my only concern about the RR + Sprint is that you might be pretty beat up after the RR. If you are going to do both, don't do the run on the RR, we can swag it. Save the run for the sprint.

    So I want you to race, just u wiling to let you do so if you are doing damage. Deal?
  • Deal. I'm not going to do anything that will jeopardize my knee, recovery and the bigger goals. I will skip the run on 3/14, and then see how the knee feels after the bike and swim on 3/15 for the Sprint. I know all about the whole not running thing for IM. I have had the same problems with HIMs in the past. I intend to improve on that a lot for this year at HIM Texas in Galveston. I just reviewed my log and I weighed 208 for that race two years ago. I can beat that and be in better shape over all this time around. I missed far too many long rides and long runs leading up to that race which was my downfall. I will walk/jog/run for time on all workouts.

    I'm mad at myself for missing the optional swim today but I have a cold coming. I hate swimming when I'm already breathing impaired due to nature (cold, allergies, etc.).

    I hereby promise to 1) Count calories like it's my new found love in life. 2) To do all my "runs" for duration and not jeopardize my knee health while doing so.

    If I fail to keep either of these and am not ready for IMFL and at 175, I owe EN Coaches one month of free Starbuck's via gift cards. And everyone that knows me knows I don't want to spend my Christmas bonus on someone else's habits.
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