How to Manage VI with a Low FTP on a Hilly Course

kimmydct

So I did my first Quassy RR today and I was trying to stick to my IF target as well as "flatten the hills" but I realized that is really tough with a low FTP.  FOr example, "Super Steep Horrible Hill #1" requires 185 watts just to remain upright.  My FTP is 168.  Rut roh! That's not even close to 75%!  What do I do?

1) Coast down the hill following Super Steep Horrible Hill #1 so I stick to my .75IF?

2) What's done is done.  Super Steep Horrible Hill #1 is in the past.  Keep riding to maintain target watts, even if that raises my overall IF above .75.

I know some folks also look at the IF in 30 minute chunks, is that another option?

Thanks!

Darren Freeman

@Kim, what cassette are you riding with?  Have you swapped it out from the stock cassette?  Most bikes come with a 25/12.  Swapping your cassette out may be the easiest option to your problem. 

For me a 25/12 is just too narrow and causes all sorts of suffering when the hills get pretty steep.  I personally ride with a 28/11 all the time which gives me a lot of options and allows me to handle really steep hills.  

Here are a couple threads on gearing and cassettes choice:

http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/14221/afnp/171512/Default.aspx

http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/12335/afnp/171512/Default.aspx

http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/11364/afnp/171512/Default.aspx

 

 

jaleslie

Kim....x2 on what Darren said.  But, assuming you've already got all the low gears you can have, you could change to a triple up front, which would allow you to spin.  Not sure I would do that though, as the triple just shifts horribly compared to a compact.  

I have the same issues on really steep hills (which fortunately are usually fairly short), with w/kg of only 3.0 and FTP of 220.  The way I look at it is....what other choice do you/we have!....get off and walk it up?!  I just go as slow as I can without risking falling over, recover at the top, and then move on.  What else are you/we gonna do?!    The idea with "flattening out the course" is to not stand up, charge up hills, and ride stupid and then not be able to run.  If you're only briefly over your goal watts a few times on the course, it shouldn't reduce you to a walk on the run IMHO.  

 

Brad Marcus

Kim- great question! I had the same problem on the course yesterday...lots of power spikes and not only on that hill, but it was certainly pronounced since that hill is so long! If it's of any consolation, I ride with a compact up front and a 12-27 cassette on the rear and still had issues spiking watts. But, this is really my first full season riding with power and coming off my trainer for the first time yesterday may also be an issue. I really think that on that course, no matter what gearing you have (aside from maybe a triple up front), watts will spike!

I know that Larry and I discussed this on the ride yesterday and he was having similar problems on the hills so you are not alone. Curious to see what others who have raced this course will say. Thanks for starting the thread.

Al Truscott

I'm not sure that cadence has anything to do with the VI. In fact, on steep hills, the slower your cadence, the closer your watts will be to your goal pace, and thus, it will help your VI to ride at that low cadence. Also, the longer the hill, the easier it will be to have a lower VI. The problem with VI in hilly courses comes with short, steep hills, which take less than a minute or two to get up. Besides the tempatation to just power up those shorter sections, there's also the math involved. NP is a rolling 30 second average, and VI is the ratio of NP to Avg P. A long hill, even at a higher NP, allows that ratio to flatten out, and thus affect the overall VI less. Also, coasting downhill will wreck havoc with the VI, and even going a little bit lower than goal watts downhill causes VI to spike. I find that the downhill sections in hilly courses are what make my VI higher than flatter ones.

Rather than worry too much about the overall VI, it might be best to create intervals just for the uphill sections, and review the VI and NP on them afterwards. That's what you are trying to hold steady and within 5-10% of goal watts for best race execution. As others have noted, don't sweat the low cadence while going up; worry about how high your current watts are (using a three second average on the display).

As to rear cassette sizes, both SRAM and Shimano now have 11-32 11 speed rear cassettes (which require a longer throw rear derailleur - SRAM call it "Wi-Fli") for road bikes; coupled with a compact crank, that offers you state-of-the-art range in gearing for both down and uphills in all but the very steepest walls you might find in most triathlon courses.

Edwin Croucher

Not surprisingly, but what Al said is right on. If you think about your trainer workouts, when you do the 2 X 20' what is your VI? At long suistained efforts even at your FTP, your VI should be near 1. The erratic efforts when we get "amped" up in the beginning of the ride is usually where we really violate the VI. Coasting down hills should happen once you are going too fast to pedal any more. Smoothing hills means riding up them at an effort level where you still have something to push over the top and ride with some power down hill. That way you make up time where everyone else is coasting to recover from over riding the up hill. In one of the EN articles, Patrick talked about his IMLP race where in the beginning other athletes were openly giving him encouragement because he was going so slow. I think he was 1st in his AG that year. That is guru level flattening.

Coach Rich

Good advice from everyone. We all, at some point, are confronted with a combination of gearing, % grade, and w/kg that force us to just do the best we can. At the end of the day, we still need to get up the hill, regardless of what the numbers say we should be doing.

But at least you can take comfort in the fact that you'll be riding all of the other stuff the right way vs everyone else who will not.

Keith Wick

how long were you at 185 watts? one thing to think about in terms of flattening those hills is how long are you actually at that effort? If it is a significant amount of time, then I would look at trying to ride the course at a lower IF in order to recover instead of finding "coasting" time to recover. This will help with the overall VI (as Al previously stated), plus coasting is just slower (unless it's a really steep downhill). This way, you'll still have the same consistency and expend the same amount of energy---speaking of which, what was your TSS for the ride. This would be something to look at in terms of RR#2---by spiking those hills (and by spiking I mean, spike the least amount possible without tipping over) and then dialing down the overall IF a 2-4 % can you lower your TSS to manageable # per the HIM table, while still maintaining other measures (lower VI, approximate time, etc).

It might help us if your able to post the ride data. I'd also look at submitting the file to Patrick for review/tips.

Peter Greagg

@ Kim
I don't know whether you have a 9, 10 or 11 speed gears.
If you have a 9 speed, I use a SRAM 9 speed 11/30 cassette with a 50/34 compact for IM Australia. I was surprised that my Ulterga derailleur could still be used with a cassette that big.

kimmydct

Thanks for all the feedback! Here is some additional info:

My bike is a Felt B16.  52/36T crank and 11-28T cassette

TSS was 236

I can't seem to upload an Excel file here, but I'll send my file to Coach P.  Or maybe I'll wait til I ride the course again since I don't think this was a good representation. 

Peter Greagg

Kim
Thanks for the bike information.
Based on that, you could go to a compact crank (eg 50/34) which would give you easier gearing by about 6% — which is not a big change. In addition, as others have noted, you could also look at a bigger rear cassette, say 30 or 32. It may be possible to use a 30 with your existing derailleur as I can. If you could use a 30 and a 34 compact that would improve (ie make easier) your gearing by about 13% which would make it much easier to sit on your watts on "Super Steep Horrible Hill #1".

If you use a Garmin head unit, you could paste the link to Garmin Connect here and I would be happy to have a look at the file for you? (Or post the head unit file somewhere I could download it eg Dropbox etc).

jaleslie

Kim...my tri bike came with that "in-between" crankset like yours....52-36.  I switched it out for a compact right away (50/34).  They didn't even have to change the cranks....they just switched the "spider".  I think it cost about $50 including labor.  For folks like us, the 2 extra high gears are not nearly as important as the two extra low gears!  I rarely run out of high gears, but run out of low gears fairly often.  

Jan Schorpion

@Kim, thanks for starting this thread, since I often have the same problem. I live in an area with rolling hills and keeping my power numbers below or at desired output levels is sometimes not possible. When I see my power numbers are pretty high, i try to go slow but steady without falling over and just keeping even pressure on the pedals. I try to follow EN climbing guidelines for those without power. Once I get to the top, I pick up right where I left off and start pedaling on the way down and ride power numbers again. 

Scott Alexander

as a big dood (205-215lbs), just about every hill makes me go over my FTP - and def over the target IF%s. Like others have said, you just have to try and minimize the amount of time over FTP as much as possible, by using cadence and/or gearing (compact and 12x27 is my regular gearing).

I can go sub-50 cadence on some hills and still exceed my FTP, all while going sub-10mph. It's draining, but I still love hills!

Also, keep up your watts as much as possible on the downhill until your cadence and gearing makes you "spin out" (aka feel like the Roadrunner cartoon).

[Deleted User]

As Brad said, he and I were discussing the power overages during the ride. On some of the longer hills I just rode as slow as I could (about 7 mph) without tipping over and my power was still a bit high (220 instead of 18). On the short steep hill just before mile 13 the number just surged the hill was so steep. Again nothing I could do about it. I kept focused on the numbers though and tried to keep where I should as often as I could. I currently have a compact crank and 11-16 cassette. For IMLP I am switching to 11-28.

I think a lot of my issue was making the transition from trainer to outdoors. It is very easy to maintain a steady power number on the trainer. Outside there are so many variables that it takes much more management of the numbers. Still, when all was said and done, I felt great after the ride and had a fantastic run. I assume I am doing something correctly.

Coach Rich

All:

To be clear, there is a difference between riding steady in training vs racing. Please read this. 

zwuba

I just want to add my 2-cents here as well ...

I'd first start with changing your front and rear gearing. Crank would be my first thing to shoot at going for Compact size 50/34. Second I'd change rear cassette to 11-28 at least for you but also 12-28 would be fine I think. For real flat courses or long downhill sections you may change the big chainring on the crank to 52 teeth (I did that once in a while).
Last but not least - if the hill is too steep get out of your saddle and reduce cadence below 60rpm. This will significantly drop your actual power but be sure to practice it before as this style of riding is challenging in another form and you may not be able to sustain for very long if not trained!
(That's why I like the latest official EN bike warmup having 3' of that for every workout)!

cdkayak

I also have a B16 that came stock with the 52/36.  After doing a training ride on the course for the White Mtn Tri last year the first thing I did was change to a 50/34.  If you have the FSA cranks that were on mine(2013 B16) then all you need to do is switch the chainrings and adjust the height of the front derailleur.  Quick job, 5 chainring bolts & you don't even have to pull the cranks off the bike.

kimmydct

Thanks for all the feedback! I can look into making some mods to my bike, but honestly, I'm not sure how much it will help. My road bike that I used for Quassy in prior years had a triple and I still had the same issue. I don't think enough gears exist for me to make it up some hills at my assigned IF.

So, that being said, when faced with managing VI or your IF, which is more important on race day? So for example, I can manage my overall IF by going easier down the next hill, or I can aim for a lower VI by continuing as close to target watts on the next downhill or flat, knowing my IF might be a little higher after going over target watts on that last evil hill.

Make sense?

Coach Rich

Posted By Kim DuBord on 29 Apr 2014 08:15 AM


Thanks for all the feedback! I can look into making some mods to my bike, but honestly, I'm not sure how much it will help. My road bike that I used for Quassy in prior years had a triple and I still had the same issue. I don't think enough gears exist for me to make it up some hills at my assigned IF.



So, that being said, when faced with managing VI or your IF, which is more important on race day? So for example, I can manage my overall IF by going easier down the next hill, or I can aim for a lower VI by continuing as close to target watts on the next downhill or flat, knowing my IF might be a little higher after going over target watts on that last evil hill.



Make sense?

I'm not sure it's an either / or situation. If it were me:

• I'd understand that my primary consideration is to get up the damn hill, IF, FTP, watts be damned . Do the best I can until my best isn't good enough...then get up the hill. 
• All hills, no matter how steep, decrease their grade across the crest. So I would back off a bit from ^this^ get up the hill watts a bit, but still extend a solid effort across the crest and into the downhill, and then coast at a relatively high rate of speed. That is, if I know I'm going to have to coast on the downhill to recover a bit, I'll make the hill ~10-20" longer as I extend my effort across the crest, so I can coast at 33-35mph, for example vs a shut-it-down 28-30mph. 

Swanie

Rich- that article in the wiki is GOOD STUFF! Hadn't read that for awhile, and will definitely use that at Couer d'Alene camp next week.

Kim- maybe other than proper gearing you need to spend more time just climbing big hills. Go find some of the ugliest hills in your area and spend a week hitting them. I remember fearing hills, avoiding them at all costs. It made me mad, so I went out and found the worst, steepest, longest hills around and climbed them again and again. Afte a week of that I was a hill climber and haven't had a problem with them since.

Coach Patrick

@Kim, adding my feedback to you here as since I don't have a power file from you that I can use (I can't import CSV!) I can't look at the data you sent.    So how do you proceed given the course? I think we are talking about a few key sections of the ride...and there is a LOT MORE you need to be thinking about vs 90% vs 95% vs 100% FTP, such as:

• Hydration -- Going to be hot!!! Do you have enough fluids? What can you do to keep your core body temp down?
• Nutrition -- How are you eating?
• Comfort -- Are you overworking or can you stay loose on the bike? Don't want you to cramp up on race day. 

I guess I am saying you ride your target watts until that isn't an option, then you do what it takes to get over that hill -- but no more!  Then you will have a chance to recover on the downhill on the other side. 

The gearing could help, as 110% FTP at 50 rpms is way harder on your racing self than 110% FTP at 90 rpms...

VI is a tool / metric we use to improve race outcomes, but there is much more we can do / think about that can have a bigger impact!